Uncomfortable topics: Let's talk about race

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

Excellent post Nigel.

My experience with race was based on a weird upbringing. First, in the tiny hillbilly village where I grew up, there weren't any non-whites. I was a teenager when the town council realized that there was still a law that said black people couldn't be in the town limits after dark.

My grandmothers, both of them, were rampantly racist. When my mom was young she went on a study date with a guy from her high school. Grandma had my uncles beat him up. My other grandma was equally bad... once I recall at a restaurant she pointed at a mixed couple and said "They shouldn't be mixing breeds like that!"

Yet, my parents raised me in a religion that, for all of its faults, does a good job on integration. I grew up with friends from nearby cities that were of other races, I spent more time with them and had more in common with them than any of my schoolmates.

For me, I always saw race, but I saw it as something embarrassing. My grandmothers behaviors, the town I lived in, all the old racist people I knew... it left me feeling guilty for their actions. It took a long time to get over that and occasionally it still smacks me in the head when I least expect it.

I worked with a guy, we had similar skills, identical jobs, he even had a college education... and yet when everyone went out on Friday night, he was occasionally stopped by cops, while none of the rest of us ever were. People that claim that racism is over or that everything is equal now are on crack.

[AFK]

I always accepted early on that there were idiots of all walks, including race.  But as with Rat, I grew up in a very white rural area, save for a couple of kids from Kenya who were adopted by the local doctor.  In the larger county there were issues of discrimination with some sparse Native American populations, and then of course there was always the stuff between those with English ancestry and those with French ancestry. 

Where I am now I am quite aware of race and the implications it has for certain segments of our community.  The latest Mayoral race, unfortunately, put back into the public sphere the very ugly feelings the many in the old "native" French-Canadian population has against the more recent and growing refugee population.  And there it is race AND religion. 

The problem is so much attention is paid to surface issues that people don't get to know each other.  when you sit down and talk and learn more about these families who've been displaced, not once, but twice, you quickly realize that they aren't that different.  They have the same fears for their kids, they care about the safety of their neighborhood, they care about the safety of their community.  They look different, talk different, have a slightly different faith, but there are far more similarities. 

But people don't want to stick their neck out to learn. 

[Phox]

Excellent post Nigel.

My experience with race was based on a weird upbringing. First, in the tiny hillbilly village where I grew up, there weren't any non-whites. I was a teenager when the town council realized that there was still a law that said black people couldn't be in the town limits after dark.

My grandmothers, both of them, were rampantly racist. When my mom was young she went on a study date with a guy from her high school. Grandma had my uncles beat him up. My other grandma was equally bad... once I recall at a restaurant she pointed at a mixed couple and said "They shouldn't be mixing breeds like that!"

Yet, my parents raised me in a religion that, for all of its faults, does a good job on integration. I grew up with friends from nearby cities that were of other races, I spent more time with them and had more in common with them than any of my schoolmates.

For me, I always saw race, but I saw it as something embarrassing. My grandmothers behaviors, the town I lived in, all the old racist people I knew... it left me feeling guilty for their actions. It took a long time to get over that and occasionally it still smacks me in the head when I least expect it.

I worked with a guy, we had similar skills, identical jobs, he even had a college education... and yet when everyone went out on Friday night, he was occasionally stopped by cops, while none of the rest of us ever were. People that claim that racism is over or that everything is equal now are on crack coke.

Sorry couldn't resist. 

Anyway, my experience with race isn't that I say "oh, I don't see race" or anything like that. I do try very hard not to say something like "the black guy over there" and instead say "that guy with the goatee and the red shirt". Maybe it's silly, and in the same vein, but I really try not to use race as an identifier, and I now that I think about it, I imagine it comes from the same sort of thing.

I grew up in an all-white town. Race was never an issue. When I was in high school, a black family moved in and their kids came to school and they were... well, they were treated like any other newcomers, at least as far as school was concerned. I cannot personally attest to their experiences otherwise, but as they are still living there, I suppose it wasn't absolutely atrocious.

On the other hand, my cousin grew up in a black neighborhood. He was the only white kid on the block. He had a tough time making friends and didn't really fit in. His (half)sisters are mixed, and so had a much easier time of it, but I don't think that was much consolation to him at the time.

I can't speak for him, of course, and it's been a few years since I've seen him but I imagine that he thought about race a lot.

I don't really know what point I'm trying to make with that. I guess that different experiences exist. Stupid, yeah.

And I should probably post this now because I keep deleting and changing lines, and i keep having to fight the urge to hit 'back' and pretend like I was never gonna post ITT.

[LMNO]

Uncomfortable topic, yeah... Not quite sure where I'm going with this, but if we're laying our cards on the table:

The majority of my black friends are openly gay.   At work, my black coworkers have the dress code and conduct standards as expected for a large financial firm.  I guess what I'm trying to say is that socially, my contact with black people are almost entirely framed in contexts other than the "black stereotype".  For lack of a better way to say it, the black people I socialize with are framing themselves in a way that parallels my (white, male, slightly queer) context.

On the other hand, I live in a neighborhood that rubs shoulders with the "economically disadvantaged" part of town.  There are shootings every other month or so just a couple of blocks away; as per Roger, the majority of people who live there are black, latino, or otherwise "not white".  When I'm coming home late at night on the train, I do have an initial danger/fear response when I see a bunch of stereotypical "from the hood" kids.  I tell myself that it's probably justified... but at the same time, I've never been mugged or assaulted.  So the evidence doesn't match up with my behavior.

These are squirrely questions.  When I try to think about them, my brain throws up dozens of rationalizations and easy outs and the question itself slips away.  Good topic.

[P3nT4gR4m]

I grew up in whitetown. There were approximately a dozen indians (not a single black as far as I know) and a couple of chinese for an area with a population of 2 or 3 thousand. To my knowledge no one ever gave them any trouble or racism. We were much too occupied hating on each other. See I grew up in a sectarian town. Blacks and asians were (to the best of my knowledge) not "dirty stinking fenian bastards" so we didn't feel the need to stomp them on site. Whitey, on the other hand - he got it based on the colour of his teeshirt.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

It's funny, because that kind of racist reaction even applies if you're black. I have it, other black people have it. It's weird as fuck.

Wait.  You mean Blacks reacting to other Blacks?

That's not so weird, given what our culture taught and - to some degree - still teaches.

Yep.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

It's funny, because that kind of racist reaction even applies if you're black. I have it, other black people have it. It's weird as fuck.

I had a (Black) teacher explain it as ingrained racism. People of color are not immune, he said, to absorbing the subtle racism that exists in a society that likes to sometimes think of itself as being colorblind.

This scenario reminds me of the advert for this new show that will be airing soon on Comedy Central, which goes

Black dude standing on corner, waiting for the WALK signal, and talking on the phone with someone
Another black dude, talking on the phone to someone else in ebonics (???) about a party or meeting them at some future time to have fun.
WALK signal happens, and the first black dude walks into the crosswalk.  When he is just out of earshot of the second guy, he says in a slightly effeminate and very white enunciation, "Oh my god, Christian, I was almost mugged just now!"

I do find it funny, and that probably makes me a bad person.

That's hilarious.

[EK WAFFLR]

I've been trying to wrap my head around the subject of race in America for quite some time, but I just can't.
Race issues in Europe are extremely different.

So, ultimately, this post is useless, other than to say I'm glad I'm not over there and brown.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

And then I just saw this--
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ylPUzxpIBe0&feature=share

"Shit white girls say, to black girls"

OMG that was funny!

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I'm glad that people have found this thread interesting/thought-provoking. I especially appreciate that people are using it as a stepping-off point for imagining what it is like to have race be an ever-present factor. When my ex and I lived in Oakland, he made a comment that stuck with me... he said it was the first time in his life that he was a minority, and it made him conscious of being white.

Waffle Iron, I wish we had a non-white European on the board so that we could get a sense for whether race is as much a non-issue for them as it is for you.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

I'm glad that people have found this thread interesting/thought-provoking. I especially appreciate that people are using it as a stepping-off point for imagining what it is like to have race be an ever-present factor. When my ex and I lived in Oakland, he made a comment that stuck with me... he said it was the first time in his life that he was a minority, and it made him conscious of being white.

Waffle Iron, I wish we had a non-white European on the board so that we could get a sense for whether race is as much a non-issue for them as it is for you.

The non-white Europeans I know here in Turkey have a mixed situation. For a long time the Kurds and Gypsies(even though they are white-ish) got the short shrift. However, over the past 10-20 years the nationalistic "We're Turks" has made a big improvement in their lives and the racial behaviors. HOWEVER, the racial stereotyping still exists and its still common, it just gets trumped by the nationalism. Sorta like "They're Kurds... but at least they're Turkish Kurds". The social prejudice isn't nearly as obvious or as strong here (most of the Kurds I've talked to seem surprised at the racial issues in the US) and the political prejudice seems non-existant. However, as an outsider, I can easily see the personal prejudice... its kinda limited to sneers or 'looking down the nose', but its still there.

[P3nT4gR4m]

British minorities complain about racism and I've met a few people who claimed to hate this or that skin colour so I'm assuming it's a problem over here too. Check the recent Stephen Lawrence case if you don't believe me. Racism is just another one of those fucking "isms" which, as a non ism-ist, is a really fucking annoying constant reminder that I'm surrounded by muppets who can't be arsed to judge an individual on their own merits rather than conform to whatever blind prejudice was programmed into them from birth or by their peers.

I've never been a target of racism but I have been one of a few protestants in the wrong colour of pub or one of a couple of long haired dudes near a crowd of skinheads so I know the principle of the thing. When I was 18 I worked for a catholic who treated me like a cunt, probably at least partly on the strength of my orangeness (I know how much I hated him cos he was a fucking papist)

Things like the black only music awards and women only this and gay only that bug me for a couple of reasons. Firstly that whatever minority or marginalised group of society should feel (and rightly so IMO) that they have to do this to help escape their marginalisation. I agree with this on principle but can't help feeling that it would be better served some other way than building a picket fence around your group. I'm of the strong opinion that it probably does as much to reinforce the views of the ones who are the problem as it does to help the situation.

I've heard the "oh but if we tried to do white only this or that there'd be outrage..." argument way too many times not to realise it is a very popular opinion, regardless of the fact that it's retarded and wrong. It shouldn't be like this but it is and you don't fight that attitude by building more and more little fortified positions. There are a lot of good ways to fight the "-isms" but the fortified position thing seems to do about as much harm as it does good.

[EK WAFFLR]

Waffle Iron, I wish we had a non-white European on the board so that we could get a sense for whether race is as much a non-issue for them as it is for you.

Most of my non-white Norwegian friends don't see it as much of an issue either, other than when other white people bring it up. Which they tend to do constantly.
And of course the racists. But they are few and far between, if you don't count online.
But I would like to know how it is in other countries.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Although your observations, as a white person, have relevance, they are only observations, so there is really no way for you to relate the experience of being a non-white Norwegian, any more than I can relate the experience of being an American man. I would love it if there was someone here to speak for themselves on what it's like to be a brown person in Norway, but there isn't. Unless you can get one of your non-white friends to come here and post...

[EK WAFFLR]

Although your observations, as a white person, have relevance, they are only observations, so there is really no way for you to relate the experience of being a non-white Norwegian, any more than I can relate the experience of being an American man. I would love it if there was someone here to speak for themselves on what it's like to be a brown person in Norway, but there isn't. Unless you can get one of your non-white friends to come here and post...

That shouldn't be too hard.