Uncomfortable topics: Let's talk about race

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I'd say the only way to suppress racism (you'll never actually get rid of it) is to marginalize racists.

Not officially, of course.  It has to be a cultural movement, or it leads to bigger problems.

What do you do when racism is built right into the fabric of society?

[Cain]

You kick society's ass.

Also

I must confess that over the past few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action"; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a "more convenient season." Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection.

[Phox]

You kick society's ass.

Also

I must confess that over the past few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action"; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a "more convenient season." Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection.

Very insightful, and more than a bit scathing. This why I believe in this holiday.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

I'd say the only way to suppress racism (you'll never actually get rid of it) is to marginalize racists.

Not officially, of course.  It has to be a cultural movement, or it leads to bigger problems.

What do you do when racism is built right into the fabric of society?

You mean like everywhere?  You work to marginalize it.

Improvement is better than standing still or going backwards.  It'll never be perfect, but that's no reason not to DEMAND equality and take no substitutes.

[navkat]

I'd say the only way to suppress racism (you'll never actually get rid of it) is to marginalize racists.

Not officially, of course.  It has to be a cultural movement, or it leads to bigger problems.

What do you do when racism is built right into the fabric of society?

You mean like everywhere?  You work to marginalize it.

Improvement is better than standing still or going backwards.  It'll never be perfect, but that's no reason not to DEMAND equality and take no substitutes.

MITTENZ.

[Golden Applesauce]

But if you marginalize it too much, then people who are self-aware enough to understand that they are themselves prejudiced will be less willing to talk about it and more inclined to pretend that they "don't see race" or whatever.  If the penalty for being wrong is too high, people won't risk self improvement.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

But if you marginalize it too much, then people who are self-aware enough to understand that they are themselves prejudiced will be less willing to talk about it and more inclined to pretend that they "don't see race" or whatever.  If the penalty for being wrong is too high, people won't risk self improvement.

Given the option between "not seeing race" and "casually referring to Black people as niggers", which option is best?

Also, what would YOU suggest?

[navkat]

Yeah, man. Make that shit socially unacceptable.

How many times have you sat there uncomfortably and heard some asshole tell a racist joke in hushed tones because he thought he was among "friendlies?"

We need to start acting all "I don't get it. How is that funny?"

Also: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=v4_COOh4VXw#t=21s

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

You kick society's ass.

Also

I must confess that over the past few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action"; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a "more convenient season." Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection.

That quote pretty much nails it.

Also, man, society has a big ass to take down, and it seems fucking DETERMINED to take itself back a couple centuries. Do you realize (other people, not you Cain, I know you realize) that the US hasn't been this conservative, with so little funding for social programs, since the nineteenth century?

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

But if you marginalize it too much, then people who are self-aware enough to understand that they are themselves prejudiced will be less willing to talk about it and more inclined to pretend that they "don't see race" or whatever.  If the penalty for being wrong is too high, people won't risk self improvement.

Given the option between "not seeing race" and "casually referring to Black people as niggers", which option is best?

Also, what would YOU suggest?

"Not seeing race" is itself a racist invention. Whenever I hear that, I know I'm talking to a white person who is playing ostrich. Why wouldn't you see race? Only because skin color raises issues that may be difficult and objectionable to think about. Otherwise, it's a lot like saying "I don't see gender" or "I don't see hair color" or "I don't see clothes".

Plus, it's a lie. It may be a self-deluded lie, and the person may really believe that they don't see race. But it's a lie nonetheless.

[navkat]

But if you marginalize it too much, then people who are self-aware enough to understand that they are themselves prejudiced will be less willing to talk about it and more inclined to pretend that they "don't see race" or whatever.  If the penalty for being wrong is too high, people won't risk self improvement.

Given the option between "not seeing race" and "casually referring to Black people as niggers", which option is best?

Also, what would YOU suggest?

"Not seeing race" is itself a racist invention. Whenever I hear that, I know I'm talking to a white person who is playing ostrich. Why wouldn't you see race? Only because skin color raises issues that may be difficult and objectionable to think about. Otherwise, it's a lot like saying "I don't see gender" or "I don't see hair color" or "I don't see clothes".

Plus, it's a lie. It may be a self-deluded lie, and the person may really believe that they don't see race. But it's a lie nonetheless.

I don't think it's a lie at all because I know what is meant but it's not an accurate description of what's going on, either

When you meet a person, do YOU see hair color? I mean, you see it, but do you really SEE it? Does it register as much more than a descriptor?

Well, it's that way for me with skin...mostly. There are some other sides and nuances to this.

As I mentioned in another thread, I see the black dude who's like, 80 in an army jacket. He's rattling on about grits and his wife and "by-the-way, what's a 15 year old girl like you doin in the Richmond VA bus terminal at three clock in th' morn?"

He's a character. He's a whole, human being, made up of a combination of variables, that's all. Some of those variables: black, old, southern accent, a little eccentric, probably a veteran, kind, friendly, talkative, probably "frugal class" (a term I coined for people who would be flat-out poor but who live closer to middle class because washing out ziploc bags and keeping the heat down to 68 doesn't bother them). I don't see RACE, per se. I see a complete, amusing, lovely, benevolent, mostly anonymous entity to drift in and out of my path. He was nice to me. That is all.

If he were young, black, wearing baggy pants and walked around clutching the side like he's trying to keep a gun from falling out the pants leg, shifty eyes...if he'd approached me with cat-calls and eyed me like I was the last pork chop on a plate full of chicken livers, you bet i'd be a little nervous around his ass.

If he was black, young (20s, 30s), baggy pants, clean shirt, smiling...nice smile. Genuine smile of a person with good humor for the world, neatly braided hair. Regular. Upright. He doesn't need to open his mouth and prove his "whiteness," he needs not say a word. He carries himself like "not a threat" and I've already dismissed the color issue. If he later approaches me, I've mostly gone colorblind...or at least color-fuzzy by then.

Now think about this:
Two weeks ago. Walmart at 2AM. I got snacky and craved brie and apples. One register open. Guy in front of me: white. Bloodshot eyes. Smelled of bourbon. His purchases indicative of a batchelor...I don't remember what they were. Chatted me up in the line, payed for his shit, left.

Guy behind me, I noticed only because I always look for the divider to place on the conveyor for the next person in line. Always. I put my shit on the belt, organize frozens/colds first, compact it and put the divider up and exchange a "thanks/you're welcome" nod with the next person.

He was black. Looked also like a batchelor. Working guy. Normal pants and shirt: dismissable. Nondescript. A few items, one of them beer or something.

I pay, leave. White bourbon guy is hanging around the exit, looking at the claw-game (put money in, try to claw out a stuffed animal?) As I started to leave, he started to leave behind me. I got the creeps. Pretended to stop and examine my receipt just inside the door.

Black workin dude soon followed. I followed him out the door and asked him to walk me to my car. I don't know a goddamned thing about either of those guys. Both drink alcohol, both are obv. Working class men. Both in fucking Walmart at two-thirty-in-the-fucking-morning. Why was black dude safe and white dude creepy? An amalgamation of looks, behavior and feeeeeeling.

By the way, Nigel, YOU factor into this story. It happened mere DAYS after our phone conversation wherein you stressed, STRESSED for me to "trust my gut." Ordinarily, I would have dismissed my creepiness for paranoia and walked to my car alone.

What would happen if the shoe were on the other foot? If black dude was creepy and white dude was kosher? I would have felt like a cunt asking white dude to walk me to my car, that's what. That's fucking stupid.

People need to be "felt out" based on appearance and how they carry themselves and the ASSOCIATIONS WE'VE MADE WITH THOSE "CATEGORIES" OF LOOKS AND BEHAVIOUR. Period. It's how we operate as animals and it's unfortunately WHY race issues are so pervasive. Race is something you can SEE and there are a fuckton of associations pre-made and ready to eat.

We need to be INTOLERANT of out-and-out racism...the jokes, the hushed perpetuation of backwards-assed attitudes, and TOLERANT of people's natural process as the stupidity gets (just like Roger said) MARGINALIZED.

Here's another weird fact: I've met some racist fuckers in the South but the prevailing attitude is such that I believe a white, blonde, blue-eyed baptist, pink-tervis-tumbler-full-of-bourbon-drinking, straw hat and lime-green capris wearing, mardi gras society G.R.I.T would have done the same thing I did...no matter how many times she's referred to the "canadians" from Pritchard under her breath from the comfort of her Neptune's Daughters society chair in the parking lot of the Civic Center on Fat Tuesday.

It's fucked up. I don't know how to solve it except to keep on keepin on. Erosion. Keep the tides turning in the right direction and handle the glaring, flagrant injustices and stupidity with candor and outrage.

Or kill me.

[Cain]

I'm willing to bet if we ever create a slave-caste based on hair colour, 200 years after it is abolished, people will still pay a lot of attention to hair colour.

[navkat]

I'm willing to bet if we ever create a slave-caste based on hair colour, 200 years after it is abolished, people will still pay a lot of attention to hair colour.

You're probably right. That's not the point. I was saying not me. For whatever reason, not me and not a bunch of us. We're not unicorns. We exist.

Let's go with that.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

But if you marginalize it too much, then people who are self-aware enough to understand that they are themselves prejudiced will be less willing to talk about it and more inclined to pretend that they "don't see race" or whatever.  If the penalty for being wrong is too high, people won't risk self improvement.

Given the option between "not seeing race" and "casually referring to Black people as niggers", which option is best?

Also, what would YOU suggest?

"Not seeing race" is itself a racist invention. Whenever I hear that, I know I'm talking to a white person who is playing ostrich. Why wouldn't you see race? Only because skin color raises issues that may be difficult and objectionable to think about. Otherwise, it's a lot like saying "I don't see gender" or "I don't see hair color" or "I don't see clothes".

Plus, it's a lie. It may be a self-deluded lie, and the person may really believe that they don't see race. But it's a lie nonetheless.

A lot of people won't get better.  Seriously.  They aren't capable of changing what they've been conditioned to be.

So which is better?  The arrogant lie of "I don't see race", or having them act the way they really think?

You can't usually change peoples' thoughts, but you CAN sometimes keep them from smearing their poop on innocent bystanders.

[Dysfunctional Cunt]

In defense of some people who say they don't see race....  I say that quite often.  In saying that I mean when I look at people that is not something I worry over. 

Yes, their race is obvious, no one can argue that.  So when people say they don't see something obvious, I've usually considered that to be saying that they don't consider that obvious to be a factor in their thoughts or opinions.

I'm not saying this is true for everyone, but it is, at least, for me.