Uncomfortable topics: Let's talk about race

[Elder Iptuous]

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Yes, their race is obvious, no one can argue that.  So when people say they don't see something obvious, I've usually considered that to be saying that they don't consider that obvious to be a factor in their thoughts or opinions.
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i thought that was the point? it is obvious to be a factor in their thoughts or opinions.

[Dysfunctional Cunt]

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Yes, their race is obvious, no one can argue that.  So when people say they don't see something obvious, I've usually considered that to be saying that they don't consider that obvious to be a factor in their thoughts or opinions.
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i thought that was the point? it is obvious to be a factor in their thoughts or opinions.

Not always.  When you deal with people of different races every day it tends to become the last thing you think about.  When I walk up to a customer my first thought is never "Oh they're black". 

[Elder Iptuous]

oh, yeah.  i can understand that.
i just meant that it should be recognized that their life experiences are going to be informed, in part, on their skin color.  and i'm thinking that is what is meant by "saying 'i am colorblind' is racist", because if one denies that fact, one is stripping the significance from difficulties they may have experienced their whole life, in a sense.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

oh, yeah.  i can understand that.
i just meant that it should be recognized that their life experiences are going to be informed, in part, on their skin color.  and i'm thinking that is what is meant by "saying 'i am colorblind' is racist", because if one denies that fact, one is stripping the significance from difficulties they may have experienced their whole life, in a sense.

Also, being colorblind strips away most of the variety that makes life neat.

[Nephew Twiddleton]

Going back a little bit i always found the black people fried chicken to be a weird one. Of course they do. Theyre humans. Kinda like "what you dont like fried chicken? Whats wrong with you?"

[Elder Iptuous]

indeed.  what a shitty curse to put on a group, saying "All people in group X really love awesome thing Y!"
then whenever they indulge in said awesome thing, the bigots get a chuckle and the person feels guilty for liking an awesome thing....
that's fucked up.

[Nephew Twiddleton]

When you put it that way it suddenly makes sense. Fried chicken is one of the greatest things ever invented. Keep a group of people from fully enjoying things like that is a sure way to make life hell.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

When you put it that way it suddenly makes sense. Fried chicken is one of the greatest things ever invented. Keep a group of people from fully enjoying things like that is a sure way to make life hell.

Yep.  Fuck that.  Avoiding a stereotype because it's a stereotype is still just more dancing to Their tune.

Don't just eat that fried chicken.  Eat the HELL out of it.

[Dysfunctional Cunt]

You know what's funny?  I wanted KFC for my birthday. 

WHAT?  It was my fucking birthday.

Anyway, neither of the boy's girlfriends would eat it.  They don't like fried chicken. So even stereotypes have their exceptions 

I was very happy... just meant more for me... 

[Nephew Twiddleton]

Naturally. I refuse to eat any seafood including lobstah and clam chowdah. Also i think corned beef and cabbage is the nastiest smelling shit. Ill eat the fuck out of bangers and mash or cranberry sauce though.

[Phox]

Naturally. I refuse to eat any seafood including lobstah and clam chowdah. Also i think corned beef and cabbage is the nastiest smelling shit. Ill eat the fuck out of bangers and mash or cranberry sauce though.

You goddamn heathen! You are part of the Rebel Alliance, and a traitor! 

(On both accounts. You fucking weirdo.  )

Phox,
Does not care for cabbage unless with corned beef or as sauerkraut.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I'm willing to bet if we ever create a slave-caste based on hair colour, 200 years after it is abolished, people will still pay a lot of attention to hair colour.

Yep.

[navkat]

But how does that diminish anything I've said? I'm not saying there aren't racists, I'm saying there really are those of us to whom, for the most part, it's a non issue.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

But if you marginalize it too much, then people who are self-aware enough to understand that they are themselves prejudiced will be less willing to talk about it and more inclined to pretend that they "don't see race" or whatever.  If the penalty for being wrong is too high, people won't risk self improvement.

Given the option between "not seeing race" and "casually referring to Black people as niggers", which option is best?

Also, what would YOU suggest?

"Not seeing race" is itself a racist invention. Whenever I hear that, I know I'm talking to a white person who is playing ostrich. Why wouldn't you see race? Only because skin color raises issues that may be difficult and objectionable to think about. Otherwise, it's a lot like saying "I don't see gender" or "I don't see hair color" or "I don't see clothes".

Plus, it's a lie. It may be a self-deluded lie, and the person may really believe that they don't see race. But it's a lie nonetheless.

A lot of people won't get better.  Seriously.  They aren't capable of changing what they've been conditioned to be.

So which is better?  The arrogant lie of "I don't see race", or having them act the way they really think?

You can't usually change peoples' thoughts, but you CAN sometimes keep them from smearing their poop on innocent bystanders.

Honestly? I think that most of the people who claim not to see race (or who say that race makes no difference to them) are well-meaning people. They aren't stifling nasty racist thoughts; they are avoiding an unpleasant reality. They are, for the most part, choosing not to think about the reality of race. What I would prefer, honestly, is for people like this to consciously think about race, and the experiences of the people they share their existence with for whom race is something it is not possible to avoid being aware of. "Not-thinking" about race isn't the way to become comfortable with it any more than "not-thinking" about homosexuality is the way to become comfortable with it. Remember when it was OK to be gay, as long as you didn't ACT gay? Some people still feel that way.

Talking about some guy with pants around his ass and a sideways baseball cap... what is that? Navkat, I know you didn't mean it this way, but up there you basically said that you wouldn't be uncomfortable with a black guy talking to you as long as he didn't have the visible social marks of being "black" other than skin color. I think a lot of good, well-intentioned people do not understand how what they say translates. I think it's good and right and important to talk about it, because, just like you don't get better at swimming if you avoid the water, you do not get any more comfortable with people being different if you don't think about it.

That's not to say that people of color, for instance blacks, have not equally engaged in creating this false comfort zone of not-thinking. Blacks and other brown people have historically always tried to make their skin color as invisible as possible when they wanted to succeed in a white European dominated world... taking the "I'm not so different from you" approach. Gloria Bird and Joy Harjo talk about this a little in "Reinventing the Enemy's Language".

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

oh, yeah.  i can understand that.
i just meant that it should be recognized that their life experiences are going to be informed, in part, on their skin color.  and i'm thinking that is what is meant by "saying 'i am colorblind' is racist", because if one denies that fact, one is stripping the significance from difficulties they may have experienced their whole life, in a sense.

Yes. That was the main gist of the OP.