Uncomfortable topics: Let's talk about race

[navkat]

JUST SO YOU KNOW, I SAID "NO OFFENSE" OKAY? THAT'S LIKE OLLY OLLY OXEN FREE BUT MORE RACIST.




jesus, I'm gonna get flamed.

[Elder Iptuous]

i don't see any reason to ream you because, fundamentally, i think you're right.
if people are going to stop being assholes, then they should... um. stop being assholes.
the nuance that others are trying to express shouldn't be denigrated though, because it is pertinent.

[navkat]

i don't see any reason to ream you because, fundamentally, i think you're right.
if people are going to stop being assholes, then they should... um. stop being assholes.
the nuance that others are trying to express shouldn't be denigrated though, because it is pertinent.

Absolutely. If you can get people to turn the lightswitch on cause you're slick like that aaaand it's not making you feel like  all the time, go for it.

I personally don't feel like I'm gonna be helping matters much by doing anything but being passive about it and taking down fools as they present themselves. I mean, do you even really want that? Some self-righteous, priveleged-ass white girl runnin her mouth with half the facts, trying to change minds about empathizing with people's "black heritage?"

I expect to get TOLD if I'm fuckin' up. I will do my best to not be an asshole about it.

I'm also not lying when I say "I don't see race" in those concrete terms. I'm sorry if that hurts feelings. I'm happy to look though if there's something you want to express. I promise, promise, promise I will assimilate any parts of yourself you're willing to reveal to me with voracious hunger and glee...no different than being introduced to a new artist or a new cuisine.

That reminds me: fuck, I could go for some Phō right now. /ADD

[Elder Iptuous]

i don't see any reason to ream you because, fundamentally, i think you're right.
if people are going to stop being assholes, then they should... um. stop being assholes.
the nuance that others are trying to express shouldn't be denigrated though, because it is pertinent.

Absolutely. If you can get people to turn the lightswitch on cause you're slick like that aaaand it's not making you feel like  all the time, go for it.

I personally don't feel like I'm gonna be helping matters much by doing anything but being passive about it and taking down fools as they present themselves. I mean, do you even really want that? Some self-righteous, priveleged-ass white girl runnin her mouth with half the facts, trying to change minds about empathizing with people's "black heritage?"

I expect to get TOLD if I'm fuckin' up. I will do my best to not be an asshole about it.

I'm also not lying when I say "I don't see race" in those concrete terms. I'm sorry if that hurts feelings. I'm happy to look though if there's something you want to express. I promise, promise, promise I will assimilate any parts of yourself you're willing to reveal to me with voracious hunger and glee...no different than being introduced to a new artist or a new cuisine.

That reminds me: fuck, I could go for some Phō right now. /ADD

is it the frequent inclusion of tripe in Pho that this reminded you of?

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Ohhhh. This one is especially good. Thank you, Telarus!
http://www.colbertnation.com/the-colbert-report-videos/405561/january-09-2012/melissa-harris-perry

Yeah, I had missed that one. Thanks Nigel.


As to Navkat's exposition, I don't think that is soley "but I have black friend". Our minds can only juxtaopse the experiences/situations/object-verb-system we have found ourselves in previously.

She has to be able to come to her own terms with it (with the caveat that now your conversations are now part of her experiential pallette).

Oh dear.

I don't get it. I'm starting to feel like I'm somehow digging myself into a hole and I don't know how or why. I'm actually starting to feel like making this much effort analyzing the matter is actually counter-productive somehow but I'm game to debate what I don't understand.

So, what am I missing? My aim here was to try to articulate how "I don't see race" could be a true sentiment even if it's not accurate or based on equal perception.

Then, my attempt was to reveal my perception and compare notes. Now I feel like a white people joke. Is it really that bad?

You could start with recognizing that this is not the "White people explain how they aren't racist" thread, and stop doing it.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I agree with you on all toast points...except...

NO OFFENSE, GUISE, OKAY? BUT
Realistically, that's bullshit.

"Higher awareness?"
"Deeper understanding?" Wtf does that mean to the practical application of not being assholes to each other? It's contrived hogwash. It's catchphrases and watchwords. You may as well say "Give a hoot, don't pollute!" to people cause it's going to have the same effect...yes, even on the well-meaning "enlightened" ones. People get complacent.

I feel like running around oblivious is a much more honest incarnation of not being assholes and twats to each other. The best way to not be an asshole is...SURPRISE, to simply go about your business not being an asshole! If you fuck up, fix it. If you step on someone's foot, say "sorry." If you feel like you have to pass people in a tight space and you might be imposing, say "excuse me."

Do not be an asshole.
Do not tolerate people being flagrant assholes around you.

Why is this such a big deal?

I have yet to read Kai's thingy btw.

NO OFFENSE, GUISE. EXCUSE ME. SORRY.

Okay.

Seriously honey, you need to shut the fuck up. I don't know if you simply don't understand, but yes, you are being offensive AS FUCK.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

"It's hard to think about other people's pain so I'm not gonna. That's good, right? I'm going to call it part of the solution and assert that if everybody just didn't think about other people's pain, the world would be a perfect place."

[Faust]

Coming from the Ivory tower I never see racism, we're composed of a load of different races.
Classism and intellectual snobbery are far more common in academia then racism ever is.

[LMNO]

Another way of looking at it:

Race can be seen in terms of the signifier and signified.  Skin colour is the signifier.  Of course everyone sees the skin colour.  What it signifies...well, that is a very complex issue.  For racists, it signifies a level of hierarchy, inherent superiority or inferiority.  We all know how that deal goes.

However, race can signify things, without those things being racist.  Knowing the history of how people with that signifier have been treated, how stereotypes and other signifiers are used to pigeon-hole them into certain roles and character attributes, knowing how political power has been wielded against them, that necessarily entails recognizing race in the first place.

The non-recognition of race, the idea of just seeing people, would be great in a world without that historical baggage.  But, unfortunately, we don't live in that world.  We've just got this one, where racism was an endemic and structural form of oppression, which does still inform some of the mechanisms of political control and power (I believe class is possibly even more important, but as a white dude who does not suffer from the negative effects of racism, I of course have an element of bias there).

Trying to ignore race can, in effect, obliviate the more pernicious yet less hard to define and conceptually difficult forms of discrimination and persecution that can exist.  To put it another way: if I was pulled over while driving, I probably wouldn't make too much of a fuss, even if I suspected I had not done anything to warrant it, because, as a rule, white guys don't get pulled over for no good reason.  However, if I was in the car and it was a black friend who was driving and he had done nothing to warrant it, then I would be considerably more vocal in my protests, and may make a couple of snide comments that would undoubtedly get me tripping down every step to the holding cell.  Because the act is different, because of the racial component and the racist approach the police take.

I guess what I'm trying to say is not that people should see without seeing race, but without seeing race is impossible, because assumptions like this are bound up in how we think, even if the assumption is the one that other people will be racist to people with different skin colour.  The fact that we expect the police to be horribly discriminatory, or that Republicans will make awful racially charged statements (ie Gingrinch's assumption that it is mostly African-Americans on food stamps, when in fact it is more white Americans, or Santorum's quickly bitten-down upon remark about "black people taking your money") is because we do see race.

Seeing race is to understand its impact in the social, economic and political arena.  And I'm sure no-one would disagree with that, but, as Nigel was saying, the "ignoring race" thing could be read as trying to ignore the history and social context of race, which is really only possible from a priviliged position within the system in the first place.

I like this post, a lot.

I was going to say something along the lines of, "Of course we see race.  The question is, now what?"

That is to say, in practical terms, and obviously physical terms, you are going to perceive different races.  Now, how is that going to change your behavior? 

Of course, speaking as a white middle-class guy, this question may only be of importance to me.  But I still think it's important.

[Sita]

I've been debating on whether to post in this thread or not. Because I was convinced that I was not someone who thought of race as an issue. I can understand where navkat is coming from, because that is pretty much my process in dealing with people.

However, reading through this thread I have come to realize that I do notice it. Just not on a conscious level. Having sat and thought about it, I can see little things that I have done in response to seeing someone. Things I will try and be more attentive of and stop doing.

So, thanks for this thread and causing me to look a little closer at myself.

[navkat]

"It's hard to think about other people's pain so I'm not gonna. That's good, right? I'm going to call it part of the solution and assert that if everybody just didn't think about other people's pain, the world would be a perfect place."

Whoahhhh...okay, this isn't about people's pain. If there's some injustice going on, yeah, tap me on the shoulder and I'll come roll up my sleeves.

If there's something that's bothering you in your heart TELL US. TELL US CLUELESS WHITE PEOPLE WHAT WE CAN DO. Or how it is that you feel that you need us to know.

I just feel that it's disengenuous for me to sit here and make promises I can't keep about always being mindful, always excercising thought and caution...and actually, I feel like it's more respectful that way. I don't operate under the pretense that I can speak for you or even 100% understand what the fuck is going on.

I am sorry that some of us were born without the responsibility to explain and express and correct and get beaten down year after year by the exhausting presence of insensitivity and ignorance. I empathize. But all I can do on my end is LISTEN and SELF CORRECT.

I AM TRYING TO DO THAT RIGHT NOW.

I do feel that erosion is a powerful medium for change--that a lot can be accomplished by being a contributing factor in a society whose attitudes have changed and whose tolerance for bullshit has lowered...just by existing in that headspace. Maybe that's idealistic. Maybe it's naive. Maybe it's stupid. I've been accused of all three.

And I am sorry if I have offended you or hurt your feelings, Nigel. You can't know what a lump in my throat that gives me. I like you. I don't want you to dislike me.

All I can do is be candidly honest.

[Triple Zero]

Seriously honey, you need to shut the fuck up. I don't know if you simply don't understand, but yes, you are being offensive AS FUCK.

Could you explain why, for the people reading along trying to make sense of this thread?

[Phox]

"It's hard to think about other people's pain so I'm not gonna. That's good, right? I'm going to call it part of the solution and assert that if everybody just didn't think about other people's pain, the world would be a perfect place."

Whoahhhh...okay, this isn't about people's pain. If there's some injustice going on, yeah, tap me on the shoulder and I'll come roll up my sleeves.

If there's something that's bothering you in your heart TELL US. TELL US CLUELESS WHITE PEOPLE WHAT WE CAN DO. Or how it is that you feel that you need us to know.

I just feel that it's disengenuous for me to sit here and make promises I can't keep about always being mindful, always excercising thought and caution...and actually, I feel like it's more respectful that way. I don't operate under the pretense that I can speak for you or even 100% understand what the fuck is going on.

I am sorry that some of us were born without the responsibility to explain and express and correct and get beaten down year after year by the exhausting presence of insensitivity and ignorance. I empathize. But all I can do on my end is LISTEN and SELF CORRECT.

I AM TRYING TO DO THAT RIGHT NOW.

I do feel that erosion is a powerful medium for change--that a lot can be accomplished by being a contributing factor in a society whose attitudes have changed and whose tolerance for bullshit has lowered...just by existing in that headspace. Maybe that's idealistic. Maybe it's naive. Maybe it's stupid. I've been accused of all three.

And I am sorry if I have offended you or hurt your feelings, Nigel. You can't know what a lump in my throat that gives me. I like you. I don't want you to dislike me.

All I can do is be candidly honest.

It is about people's pain. Think about it. How many times ave you bumped into a random black person you don't know? What are the odds that they reacted towards you by making themselves appear as non-threatening/non-black as possible? Fairly good, I'd say.

A couple of years ago, I was chilling at a little ice cream stand on The Strip, it was about 8 or 9 o'clock and dark. I was just sort of enjoying my Sundae, and a group of black people came up to me. I didn't think anything of it, cause one of the dudes was in one of my classes, so I figured he recognized me or whatever and was going to say hi. Well, a middle aged fellow, who appeared quite drunk, began chatting me up about ice cream for no apparent reason. The guy in my class, said "Don't worry, we aren't a threat." and seemed rather nervous and embarrassed by his companion's behavior. I said it was cool, and chatted with them for a few minutes until they finally manged to get the drunk fellow to come along to wherever they were originally headed. I waved good bye and went back to eating my ice cream.

Here's the thing: A stereotypical white person, being approached at random by a group of black people, may very well view them as a threat. Hence why my classmate felt inclined to say that they weren't. Me personally, it didn't even occur to me that that might be the case. But it occurred to THEM.

So, the point that is trying to be made, navkat, is that while your outlook works from your perspective. It doesn't do any good to the hundreds of thousands of black people who don't know you personally. It is, inherently, a privileged position. While I am not sure what you can do to actively alleviate it. I generally try to be conscientious that I don't do anything that might seem like a defensive gesture when I am walking down the hall and being approached by a non-white person. I'll keep my pace, make eye contact, smile, not fiddle with my phone, whatever. I do not know if that does anything to help most of the time. But smiling at a person generally brightens their day anyway, so maybe it also helps them see that their "otherness" is not important to me? I honestly don't know.

[Nephew Twiddleton]

I think the smiling thing is that people like to see other people being happy. It satisfies you in a way that makes you go "good for that dude." or "that is one happy dude." and of course if someone is more outwardly happy then that like if they do a little dance and sing "today is awesome!" you have to laugh. Because not only do you feel good for this random person but theyre also being funny.

/tangent

[navkat]

@Phox

Okay, that clears some things up for me. Let me repeat back to you what I received:
What you're saying is black people are in a position right now (REGARDLESS OF HOW THEY GOT THERE) of feeling nervous and defensive about how they "come off" to whites and as a result, they find themselves behaving in apologetic ways and being burdened with the non-liberty of excercising caution and self-censorship (cognitive slavery) which is painful.

The second message I received as logically implied is:
Because of this cognitive hardship (which is an injustice, REGARDLESS OF HOW IT GOT THERE OR WHOSE FAULT IT IS OR ISN'T ), we, as the members of the other, diametrically facing side of this equation, have the responsibility out of politeness, consideration and basic, human decency to share in some of this burden by being mindful not to unnecessarily trigger or exacerbate it NOT MUCH DIFFERENTLY THAN YOU WOULD AVOID TALKING ABOUT DEATH AT THANKSGIVING DINNER WHEN ONE OF YOUR GUESTS JUST LOST HIS WIFE. Have a hand in not putting people in any awkward situations that can be avoided?


Okay. That being the case, I can see how that sounds equitable and righteous.

There is also a rebelious girl inside, screaming "Fuck no! The answer to discomfort and self-censorship is NOT more self-censorship! The point is to find a way to create a situation where ice-cream-guy and his friend KNOW and are AWARE of the fact that that apology was unnecessary (because it was with you). Ice-cream dudes should know he's got friends and we should be getting past this now, not perpetuating it on the other side!"

But I do realize how 1. Unrealistic and 2. Arrogant that sounds. I don't mean to be...but technically, the rebelious girl is right. Nobody should have to do that mental slavery shit.

But that's like telling me to "Grow up and stop having daddy issues," right? 30 years in the Skinner Box and still pulling that lever when the buzzer goes off.

Have I got the right motorcycle firmly nestled in my crotch now?