Drug Policy Needs More Centrists (NYTimes OP-Ed)

[Triple Zero]

http://news.yahoo.com/marijuana-found-to-boost-memory-in-kids-under-nine-213277650

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

Ill just leave this here then

http://news.yahoo.com/marijuana-doesnt-harm-lung-function-study-found-210146886.html

Saw that. Here's another.

http://www.northernstar.com.au/story/2012/01/09/memory-loss-fears-over-cannabis-use-up-in-smoke/

[Edit: Here's a story with a link to the abstract.]
http://www.opposingviews.com/i/society/drug-law/uk-study-shows-middle-aged-males-marijuana-usage-not-detrimental

But, the researchers said that the advantage was small and might reflect another finding, that people who use drugs generally have a higher education level than non-users. A small subset of the participants who said that they had been treated for drug use, which may suggest more of an addiction, or very heavy use, did not fare as well cognitively at 50, but researchers say the subset was too small to draw a meaningful conclusion.
Researchers did caution that heavy or long term use of any illicit drugs may still be bad for brain function. Past studies have found that marijuana and cocaine can cloud thinking, affect memory and attention span, but the current finding add support that those effects may only be temporary.

But when we look at heavy use of substances, this study does suggest some impairment.  So if everyone uses marijuana responsibly and doesn't abuse it, then sure, everything should be fine.  But kids aren't equipped to successfully and consistently exercise that restraint, as well as your adults who are prone to abuse.  It doesn't surprise me in the least that "normal" or moderate usage of the drug does not create significant impariment. 

The question then becomes, how many drug users are able to exercise that restraint?

Oh hell, why not...

With pot it's not really restraint. It's not much of moremoremoremore drug. Of course, when it becomes a cool rebellious thing cause of, I dunno, whatever factors may lead to it being viewed as a cool rebellious thing, then the cool rebellious thing is to one up your peers by literally forcing yourself to smoke copious amounts.

...aaaaand. I'm sure someone could quite quickly pull up some statistics or other that pertain to the efficacy of "norming", versus abstinence based approaches, in encouraging moderate use.

There is certainly evidence that in areas where its legal, adults are not smoking to the point of impairment. (See Holland etc).

Now, I'm going to say something and I don't mean it to be rude but I think its an important point. RWHN has never tried pot, he knows only what he's read on the subject, which (based on what he's shared) appears to be the official government view. Its one of those points in this debate where we just hit a wall. He seems to think Marijuana is like alcohol or coke or meth... yet for people that use it, such a comparison seems absurd.

One of my friends has a saying "If you're high, stop smoking... you don't end up more high, you just end up with less weed". In my experience, this view appears to be the norm among users.

[East Coast Hustle]

Ill just leave this here then

http://news.yahoo.com/marijuana-doesnt-harm-lung-function-study-found-210146886.html

Saw that. Here's another.

http://www.northernstar.com.au/story/2012/01/09/memory-loss-fears-over-cannabis-use-up-in-smoke/

I think the guy being quoted in that story might have gone a little overboard when he said:

Mr Balderstone said the "fear and paranoia of smoking under prohibition" is also one of the biggest causes of mental illness in cannabis users.

I dunno, I've known a lot of marijuana smokers and while they weren't exactly peachy keen with it being illegal, they weren't exactly losing their marbles over it either.  I think he might have jumped the shark there.

There was a study I remember reading which claimed higher rates of mental illness among Jamaican immigrants to places where pot was prohibited than Jamaicans that were in Jamaica or Holland. Correlation, I would say... but both sides of the drug debate love to take correlation and pass it off as causation

Marijuana is prohibited in Jamaica. Enforcement varies depending on what part of the island you're talking about, but if you light up in front of a Jamaican cop and he's not a relative or friend of yours, you're probably gonna have a bad day.

[East Coast Hustle]

http://news.yahoo.com/marijuana-found-to-boost-memory-in-kids-under-nine-213277650

[AFK]

Now, I'm going to say something and I don't mean it to be rude but I think its an important point. RWHN has never tried pot, he knows only what he's read on the subject, which (based on what he's shared) appears to be the official government view. Its one of those points in this debate where we just hit a wall. He seems to think Marijuana is like alcohol or coke or meth... yet for people that use it, such a comparison seems absurd.

I would humbly suggest this isn't completely accurate.  My knowledge goes a bit beyond what I've read.  For example, I also have experience working with those (young people) who have been addicted to marijuana.  My former agency did, and still does, outpatient treatment, intensive outpatient treatment, family treatment, residential.  The whole gamut of treatment options.  In fact graduates of our program have often done speaking engagements at various schools across the state talking about their experience with substance abuse, how it impacted their lives, how it started, how it evolved....  I've done many focus groups and other formative research with kids who have abused drugs.  So, I personally don't think my lack of doing drugs impacts my ability to have a firm, evidence based understanding of how drugs impact youth and communities. 

I would further stipulate that my view isn't predicated on the "official government view".  Indeed, there are instances where I part ways with the government, particularly when it comes to how things are funded.  The government puts a lot of money and resources into law enforcement policies.  I personally believe there should be more money in treatment and prevention.  Further, when I do messaging in my work, I don't rely on resources from the government.  I make my own, based on science and peer-reviewed research and best practices.  I tend to think their stuff is a bit boring an ineffective.  I think I bring a bit more creativity and out of the box thinking to the game.  My grant director seems to agree. 

[AFK]

I'll also just add for the hell of it that I actually do little to no work in the area of marijuana specifically.  My current work has me focusing more on Rx abuse, inhalant abuse, and the rise of synthetic drugs like "bath salts".  Also underage drinking which is always a given. 

[Nephew Twiddleton]

I'll also just add for the hell of it that I actually do little to no work in the area of marijuana specifically.  My current work has me focusing more on Rx abuse, inhalant abuse, and the rise of synthetic drugs like "bath salts".  Also underage drinking which is always a given.

That's a worthwhile area to work on.

Also, obligatory response to this:

For example, I also have experience working with those (young people) who have been addicted to marijuana.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uUPHlAbAf2I

[East Coast Hustle]

Dude.

Nobody gets addicted to marijuana. That's just ridiculous.


Also, your argument is reminiscent of someone saying that they are qualified to fly an airplane because they've talked to alot of pilots and read alot of manuals. If you've never sparked up, you literally CAN NOT know what you are talking about. You can only suppose, assume, or infer.

[East Coast Hustle]

Twid, I can't watch videos on this connection but I hope to hell that's the scene from Half-Baked where Bob Saget tears Dave Chapelle a new one for saying he's in rehab for marijuana.

[Nephew Twiddleton]

Twid, I can't watch videos on this connection but I hope to hell that's the scene from Half-Baked where Bob Saget tears Dave Chapelle a new one for saying he's in rehab for marijuana.

It most certainly is. 

[AFK]

:shrug: 

Marijuana is the number one drug amongst youth in Maine (and I suspect in other areas of the country too) who are admitted for substance abuse treatment.  Science, evidence-based, best practice treatment.  This ain't homeopathy.  (Though I'm sure there are some quacks out there that employ homeopathic treatments for drug abuse)  Kids, and adults, come out the other side and rid themselves of their addiction. 

I dunno, maybe it's magic or coincidence, but something is helping them be in recovery. 

[Nephew Twiddleton]

:shrug: 

Marijuana is the number one drug amongst youth in Maine (and I suspect in other areas of the country too) who are admitted for substance abuse treatment.  Science, evidence-based, best practice treatment.  This ain't homeopathy.  (Though I'm sure there are some quacks out there that employ homeopathic treatments for drug abuse)  Kids, and adults, come out the other side and rid themselves of their addiction. 

I dunno, maybe it's magic or coincidence, but something is helping them be in recovery.

How are they treated? What are the root causes for their marijuana abuse, generally speaking?

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

Now, I'm going to say something and I don't mean it to be rude but I think its an important point. RWHN has never tried pot, he knows only what he's read on the subject, which (based on what he's shared) appears to be the official government view. Its one of those points in this debate where we just hit a wall. He seems to think Marijuana is like alcohol or coke or meth... yet for people that use it, such a comparison seems absurd.

I would humbly suggest this isn't completely accurate.  My knowledge goes a bit beyond what I've read.  For example, I also have experience working with those (young people) who have been addicted to marijuana. 

That statement tells me that ou've worked with kids that have serious problems... which some people consider 'marijuana addiction'. As I've stated many times, kids + pot = bad (usually because of whatever issues drove the kid to smoking). However, having had experience talking and working with kids that got in bad with the drug and in talking with adults that use the drug and having used it myself... I don't really think the two things are comparable.

Do kids oversmoke? Most likely because kids like to do everything to excess (especially if its part of a habit of escapism). However, those behaviors don't generally exist in the adult population (including the adult population that used to oversmoke as kids). That you still stick with the term 'addicted' doesn't really instill confidence in your perception of the topic. No offense.

My former agency did, and still does, outpatient treatment, intensive outpatient treatment, family treatment, residential.  The whole gamut of treatment options.  In fact graduates of our program have often done speaking engagements at various schools across the state talking about their experience with substance abuse, how it impacted their lives, how it started, how it evolved....  I've done many focus groups and other formative research with kids who have abused drugs.  So, I personally don't think my lack of doing drugs impacts my ability to have a firm, evidence based understanding of how drugs impact youth and communities. 

Again... I don't think the experiences you list here are giving you an objective view... or anything close to a realistic view of the drug, how its used by adults, how it affects adults and what the adult culture surrounding it is. On occasion you've repeated examples which are in reality urban legends (like 'they lace weed with glass') which, if you had experienced the culture, you would have found absurd as soon as you heard it. If for no reason that in breaking down the weed to smoke it you would have found glass, or your fingers would have gotten glass embedded in them. Not to mention the more social/cultural aspects where a weed dealer's ability to make money depends heavily on his relative honesty about the product he's selling. Again, I'm not trying to smear the work you do with kids. I think that's good stuff and important, but I do find that many of your comments, concerns and viewpoints tend to seem naive when it comes to adults.

I would further stipulate that my view isn't predicated on the "official government view".  Indeed, there are instances where I part ways with the government, particularly when it comes to how things are funded.  The government puts a lot of money and resources into law enforcement policies.  I personally believe there should be more money in treatment and prevention.  Further, when I do messaging in my work, I don't rely on resources from the government.  I make my own, based on science and peer-reviewed research and best practices.  I tend to think their stuff is a bit boring an ineffective.  I think I bring a bit more creativity and out of the box thinking to the game.  My grant director seems to agree.

Yes, you disagree on topics like funding and enforcement... but I'm talking about the drug, its use and its effects. Not how to better implement prohibition. That you say things like 'addiction' 'cognitive impairment' or 'physical harm' is in line with the government view of the topic and completely put of line with the science and actual experience. asking things like "How many users can exercise restraint?" also comes across as completely uninformed.

Again, I'm not trying to be an ass to you here. I'm just trying to stress that your expertise in dealing with kids on Rx drugs or bath salts... doesn't seem to extend to the real world experience of adults using the drug. It doesn't lessen the value of the work you're doing, but I think it may lend a few bars to your BIP that block the view of some of the topics I mentioned. As such, I think your comments sometimes come across as uninformed or naive or propaganda (which I don't believe personally) to those that actually know though experience what they're talking about.

I don't think that means you should smoke pot, only that maybe you might consider that there could be some serious gaps in your knowledge.

----added since there are new posts----

I know 10 people including one teenager that went through treatment after getting caught with marijuana. In EVERY case, they thought it was funny because they would make shit up and get away with 'talking' instead of jail time. However, all of them were still happy to light up and privately thought marijuana addiction was a crock of shit.

Maybe there really are people out there addicted to pot. I've never met one. I've met people addicted to all sorts of drugs... but never pot. Just my experience.

[AFK]

What is your definition of addiction?

[AFK]

:shrug: 

Marijuana is the number one drug amongst youth in Maine (and I suspect in other areas of the country too) who are admitted for substance abuse treatment.  Science, evidence-based, best practice treatment.  This ain't homeopathy.  (Though I'm sure there are some quacks out there that employ homeopathic treatments for drug abuse)  Kids, and adults, come out the other side and rid themselves of their addiction. 

I dunno, maybe it's magic or coincidence, but something is helping them be in recovery.

How are they treated? What are the root causes for their marijuana abuse, generally speaking?

Licensed counselors will use best practices such as cognitave behavioral therapy, motivational interviewing.  If there are some serious family and behavioral issues also showing up they might go through something like Family Functional Therapy.  If there is other mental-health stuff showing up they would go through some kind of co-occuring therapy, depending on which behavioral issue seems to be taking precedence.  Of course, like any kind of behavioral treatment, it won't always work for everyone, and many will make multiple attempts before it works.  Part of it depends on the person and their willingness to receive help.