Comic Reviews and discussions

[The Good Reverend Roger]

That's not what pays the bills for marvel or DC though.

Any attempt to break away from the crap they have now is met harshly.

The thing is the buyers did pull the plug on this mess. In the 90's DC foreclosed and was absorbed by Time Warner, in the last five years Marvel went bust and was bought out by Disney.

The two companies are zombies, going through the motions of what they knew in life, unable to change (reacting violently to it when it happens).

The only reason they are still around is as you said: the movies. Disney and Warner want shit they can trot out in the summer and make a killing on. See they ran out of ideas long ago and there's only so many movies you can remake, so they are cycling though the dead properties they bought for a pittance and making lots of money off it.

When superhero movies go out of fashion again, then that's it. The comics will sink into obscurity and creator owned* or independents will finally get the recognition they deserve.

I love the autobiographical genre, but it's one that gets largely ignored.

*self publishing online now makes it possible for anyone to have reasonable success with a series without any printing costs. If people like it, a kickstarter to get some physical copies out there has worked really well for a lot of people.

I self-published MSY and broke even (+ $3.50).  The only problem with self-publishing is distribution (and, going into it, knowing what that publishing is going to cost).  In addition, you don't have an editor telling you what works, layout-wise...You're reinventing the wheel every generation.

We thought MSY was pretty damn good, and the overwhelming cricitism was "it's a collection of heads", which was a pretty fair assessment.  I also didn't know how to break the story between volume I and the never-to-happen volume II (don't get me started).

So I think there's a place for a proper publisher, just not Marvel and DC.  They are Studebakers in a world of Smartcars.  Yeah, they LOOK classic, but they're too pricey and have lousy mileage.  And the interiors SUCK.

The thing that sucks, though, is that the indie company here is basically Marvel on a small scale.  They barely exist, because they're writing the same shit they wrote when they started, 15 years ago.  And like Marvel/DC, they won't touch anything they aren't already completely used to...I know of 8 writers beside myself that have pitched an idea to them, which they were initially interested in, and which died on the operating table the moment the artists were asked to draw something that wasn't wearing a fucking cape.

I was talking with the editor a few weeks ago (I was pitching LDW), and he agreed that things were grim...But he couldn't figure out why.  "We were selling this shit like crazy 5 years ago."  I didn't bother explaining things to him; he would have thought it was part of the pitch.  Besides, he was the kind of guy that would rather sink comfortably than risk something new.  Don't even rearrange the deck chairs on the Titanic, we like 'em where they are.

So my task now is to find a reasonably local indie that isn't terrified of a story that hasn't been done over and over again for the last three quarters of a century.

[Faust]

Digital distribution is changing things:

The private eye (Brian K Vaughan of Y the last man) is publishing purely in digital form for now, allowing people to pay what they want for the projec. If it does well they are going to do a physical print.

http://panelsyndicate.com/

Your breaking even is a complete success for an independent, a lot of people lose money going for physical print. It stands to reason why it did well, while the art was simple but it had this eerie dream like quality to it that fit really well with you're excellent writing.

It only occurs to me now but if you ever want to advertise on the front page just say and I'll sort it out.

If you're going for a second project, I would suggest trying out a kickstarter funding run because I am sure you would get it. There's some tips for getting funded:

Have the story finished and artwork finished, people are willing to part with money for something they know isn't a risk.
Post a sample (some people post the entire story in digital form).
Have an exact quote for the amount of money you need to print X number of copies.
Set goals for if you break certain funding thresholds such as paper quality, binding etc.

It cuts out having to go through the retailer chain, you send your copies directly to the the project backers, the only thing you would be missing is the editor.

[Faust]

This might be too personal a question but how much did it cost and how many issues did you print of MSY? I understand if you don't want to go into
it but it's something that I've wondered about.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

If you're going for a second project, I would suggest trying out a kickstarter funding run because I am sure you would get it. There's some tips for getting funded:

I won't be...Funding isn't the problem.  The problem is that I had three (3) artists flake out on me, one after the other, including the lady that did the existing comic (turned out that what she had wanted to do all her life was actually WORK, so she lost interest).  Fact is, anyone with both the talent and the self-discipline to do this sort of thing is already doing it.

So you either get a motivated person who draws the faces different every time, or you get someone with the talent, but who never actually gets around to doing the work.

So, I learned 3 things:

1.  Never pay an comic artist in advance, no matter how desperate they may be.
2.  Never work on a casual basis.  Find a publisher.
3.  Stay out of the comics biz.  Sell stories to them, maybe, but for God's sake, don't touch the industry.

So, yeah, not doing any more indie work.  The rest of MSY is gathering dust on a shelf, next to Tales From Fat Ernie's and now LDW.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

This might be too personal a question but how much did it cost and how many issues did you print of MSY? I understand if you don't want to go into
it but it's something that I've wondered about.

I ran a hundred copies through Kablam.  Materials cost was about $50, printing costs were about $400 (would have been $300, but the artist blew the deadline, and I needed the shit done by the event it was scheduled for release in).  Then there were some shipping expenses, etc.

I sold 70 copies, the artist and I took 5 each as comps, 5 are sitting on consignment, and there's about 15 copies on the shelf.

[Faust]

If you're going for a second project, I would suggest trying out a kickstarter funding run because I am sure you would get it. There's some tips for getting funded:

I won't be...Funding isn't the problem.  The problem is that I had three (3) artists flake out on me, one after the other, including the lady that did the existing comic (turned out that what she had wanted to do all her life was actually WORK, so she lost interest).  Fact is, anyone with both the talent and the self-discipline to do this sort of thing is already doing it.

So you either get a motivated person who draws the faces different every time, or you get someone with the talent, but who never actually gets around to doing the work.

So, I learned 3 things:

1.  Never pay an comic artist in advance, no matter how desperate they may be.
2.  Never work on a casual basis.  Find a publisher.
3.  Stay out of the comics biz.  Sell stories to them, maybe, but for God's sake, don't touch the industry.

So, yeah, not doing any more indie work.  The rest of MSY is gathering dust on a shelf, next to Tales From Fat Ernie's and now LDW.

That's disappointing to hear. And makes sense. Planetary took John Cassaday 10 years to do. All the Consistent, good artists in the industry are treated like Scared cows, often given titles when they express the desire to write. Sadly some of the best artists out there are terrible writers, JH Williams and David Gibbons spring to mind).

I hope you manage to find someone because MSY was outstanding and I'd love to read more.

This might be too personal a question but how much did it cost and how many issues did you print of MSY? I understand if you don't want to go into
it but it's something that I've wondered about.

I ran a hundred copies through Kablam.  Materials cost was about $50, printing costs were about $400 (would have been $300, but the artist blew the deadline, and I needed the shit done by the event it was scheduled for release in).  Then there were some shipping expenses, etc.

I sold 70 copies, the artist and I took 5 each as comps, 5 are sitting on consignment, and there's about 15 copies on the shelf.

That actually doesn't sound too bad. Artist costs are expensive and I remember the drama around that but material and printing wise I would have expected that to be a hell of a lot more.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

That actually doesn't sound too bad. Artist costs are expensive and I remember the drama around that but material and printing wise I would have expected that to be a hell of a lot more.

In that particular case, we both agreed to work for artist credit, with Kim getting any actual profits, after I recovered costs, as it was a joint venture to get into the biz.  Materials costs were story board and pencils/ink.  Not so bad.

For MSY2, I paid the artist in advance, and never saw page 1, just some fucking galleys.  The artist is a member of this board (Suu), and I have never felt the same about her since.  The money wasn't the thing, it was seeing the project roll over and fucking die.  The other artist, who used to post here very rarely ("Manubu") is local, and is on my short list for face-punching.  I didn't pay him in advance, but I did get the materials together, which he then promptly used on another project.  He's avoided me since, which is probably pretty wise.

What I got out of the whole experience was a load of bitterness, which is apparently par for the course.

[Faust]

That's even more disappointing. It doesn't matter how talented the artist is if the project trails off. I guess it's meeting those deadlines consistently  that makes the big guys so expensive.

Would you do it again given the opportunity with the right artist?

[The Good Reverend Roger]

That's even more disappointing. It doesn't matter how talented the artist is if the project trails off. I guess it's meeting those deadlines consistently  that makes the big guys so expensive.

Would you do it again given the opportunity with the right artist?

1.  Absolutely.  You blow a deadline with Diamond, they drop you for two years (unless you're Warren Ellis, in which case, you know, whenever).

2.  Only in a business arrangement.  Seriously, the project didn't "trail off", it was never even WORKED ON after volume I.  I got a pile of excuses from all 3 artists, but no product.  So my new philosophy is that I sell the story, or it doesn't see print.  I am NOT getting involved in a dogfuck like that again.

I might be amenable to an artist handling a project using my writing, but that would have to be negotiated.  I won't run a project like that ever again.

[Faust]

Excuses are no use. At work I've noticed the same thing, I would far prefer a "I don't have time", "I'm not going to get this done" or a "I've lost interest" to kicking the can down the road, everyone is happier to cut their losses earlier on and maybe something else can be done about it.

The request to use writing for a comic one is an interesting and tricky one. If you say "Fine, just run it by me so I am happy with it" it can still have hurt feelings if the whole thing gets made and the artist is told no. Conversely if they just release it ignoring your input then the hurts on you. So even if someone offers to turn it into a comic for you, its still a hands on process. See a sample of a few pages, if everyone's happy go on another bit more, if not call it quits, not too much time has been wasted for anyone.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Excuses are no use. At work I've noticed the same thing, I would far prefer a "I don't have time", "I'm not going to get this done" or a "I've lost interest" to kicking the can down the road, everyone is happier to cut their losses earlier on and maybe something else can be done about it.

The request to use writing for a comic one is an interesting and tricky one. If you say "Fine, just run it by me so I am happy with it" it can still have hurt feelings if the whole thing gets made and the artist is told no. Conversely if they just release it ignoring your input then the hurts on you. So even if someone offers to turn it into a comic for you, its still a hands on process. See a sample of a few pages, if everyone's happy go on another bit more, if not call it quits, not too much time has been wasted for anyone.

P3NT took a stab at Tales From Fat Ernie's, and it was remarkable shit...But he never committed to anything, and then he simply didn't have time to work on it.  I was a bit disappointed (his work is THAT GOOD), but no hard feelings...He said from the beginning that he probably couldn't do the project.

That's one thing.  What happened with MSY is quite another.

And my general rule is that I do the script in panel format, I see the galleys, and then I don't stick my fucking nose in again until the project is over, unless the artist has questions.  The galleys will tell me if they have what it takes, and the panel format tells them what I want.  The art itself is up to the artist.  I'm pretty much okay with anything that isn't anime.

[Q. G. Pennyworth]

Trying to start getting back into the Invisibles by Grant Morrison at the moment, that guy sure is pretty cray cray.

The Invisibles bored me to tears, though I understand a lot of people like it.  It wasn't badly written, it just wasn't for me.

The Filth, on the other hand, was fucking AMAZING, if a little over the top in the crudity department.

I really enjoyed the Invisibles and didn't care for the Filth at all. One thing that helped was having someone who had already gotten really into the story-behind-the-story stuff and would feed me little bits of "this thing is a reference to that thing" and "everyone in a white suit is a real person interacting with the fictional world through the game."

[Demolition Squid]

I did a little research into how things have been working at the major companies after the horrific 'Suicide Harley' shenanigans. I am unsurprised that they can't manage to make things work.

Apparently, the current head of DC holds up the fact that Batman sold 180,000 copies worldwide as evidence that he's doing something fantastically right. I was startled at that. It doesn't seem like 180,000 is a massive amount of people for a flagship line to me, not compared to sales figures on video games and such.

I really love some comics. Astro City, The Exiles, and The Runaways were all freakin' awesome, as was Age of Apocalypse. I also disagree that you need to wipe out the big names to tell great stories. Batman's No Man's Land was brilliant, the recent Wonder Woman stuff, some Batgirl stuff... all great.

What you need are people willing to give the writers room they need without meddling. My understanding is that the editors at DC in particular have been godawful since the New 52 mess, approving storylines that take a full year to map out, and then demanding changes on an issue to issue basis which completely throws it all out. Things then get rushed and confused, they clamor from one issue to the next, artists get burned out working to that kind of schedule, and writers feel completely undermined when the character arc they'd been developing is thrown out the window.

The iconic superheroes are basically just archetypes. Every writing team brings a different feel to the characters, such that there's plenty of room to play in amongst them. Using Superman or Batman is basically just shorthand, IMO, for the type of archetype you're playing with and you don't need to throw that out - especially given how loose canon is allowed to be when it suits the authors.

But they've locked themselves into a weird feedback loop where they believe they have to shock the audience (just look at that godawful Battle Royale ripoff they've trumpeted as being so popular), and they've become more interested in focusing on spectacle and 'shock value' than telling stories which play to the strengths of the medium.

I suspect its a lot like Hollywood. The reason so many 'blockbusters' follow the rote formula is because executives believe that the bigger stakes get the bigger audience for their movies, so they up the ante as high as it will go, to the detriment of the stories they are trying to tell (World War Z is a good example of this). DC and Marvel have lost the self-confidence to try and actually tell stories, and don't believe their target audience is capable of appreciating it; far better to go for the tried and tested ground, despite the fact that constantly rehashing those same themes over and over is what is killing it. Heck, they even just repeat those themes in the same damn way.

This blog post has a lot of interesting stuff to say about the relationship between writers and editors at DC, and informed a lot of my thoughts. This bit, in particular, I think resonates with what you guys are talking about.

DC is not wrong to value and court its core audience, but the publisher has 52 titles to play with, and no-one in that core audience is reading 52 DC titles a month. There are other niches to crack besides "straight white men who like horror" and "straight white men who like westerns." Straight white men who grew up reading comics and want to buy something for their daughters might be a place to start.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

The iconic superheroes are basically just archetypes.

If the archetypes can't be altered, the effect is the same.

[Faust]

The iconic superheroes are basically just archetypes.

If the archetypes can't be altered, the effect is the same.

They can be altered, just not by people working in the company. I listed it earlier, Irredeemable from Boom studios.

He's all but superman by another name, Plutonian (meaning distant, alien, older meanings referring to originating from hell). With all his powers, his Lois, his life but as the title goes, he is irredeemable.

It's not a re imagining that's more dark, or bad ass or willing to cut loose.

It's an utter betrayal of the concept of superman. It's not a shallow one trick pony either they go into a really good character study of what kind of systematic abuses and failures would drive the most gentle and powerful man alive to lose any form of hope and commit atrocities.