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Scottish Independence

Started by Cain, January 11, 2012, 09:08:15 AM

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Quote from: Billy the Twid on January 11, 2012, 02:34:11 PM
It's not just a matter of me being Irish and going haha. It's really just a matter of the people deciding their preferred government. If 70% of Cornish people end up favoring independence, hey, more power to them. I'm sure they would be able to find a way to make it work, otherwise they wouldn't seriously consider the option. And I wouldn't say that Scottish and Welsh nationalism is manufactured. Scots seem to be sufficiently different from English for them to feel a sense of nationalism. And Welsh people are a distinct species of cave gnome.

As far as any major institutions, I imagine that London and whatever capital city(ies) will be forced to negotiate that if and when the time comes. I imagine that London will end up bearing the brunt either way.

What about if it were a city?

How about a part of a city?

How about a house?

It is nice in theory to think that people should be able to decide where they want to draw the lines of nationality, it really is. In practice, in the situation we live in, it is a fairly stupid and impractical concept beyond a certain point. Scotland might be able to make it work... maybe, but it is going to cause a lot of problems if England says 'Okay, but you take all the debt accumulated by 'your' banks with you'.

When I talk about nationalism being manufactured, by the way, I mean that a lot of the support for Scottish independence comes from a history which does not exist. Most Scots (and English for that matter) do not know why Britain is Britain. It is an invention of the Scottish far right.
I had an existential crisis and all I got was this stupid gender.

Xooxe

Quote from: Billy the Twid on January 11, 2012, 02:34:11 PMScots seem to be sufficiently different from English for them to feel a sense of nationalism.

It's the accent.

Nephew Twiddleton

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Soy El Vaquero Peludo de Oro

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Scribbly

I had an existential crisis and all I got was this stupid gender.

Nephew Twiddleton

Quote from: Demolition_Squid on January 11, 2012, 03:05:42 PM
Quote from: Billy the Twid on January 11, 2012, 03:03:24 PM
Quote from: Demolition_Squid on January 11, 2012, 02:42:49 PM

What about if it were a city?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monaco
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Marino

Quote
How about a part of a city?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vatican_City

Quote
How about a house?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_Military_Order_of_Malta

And you think these provide an applicable model for the devolving of power in the modern british state.

Okay.

No, obviously every country is different. Britain will have to figure out for itself whatever models it wants to devolve power. That was merely to show you that there are countries that are cities, parts of cities, and even just a house.
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Soy El Vaquero Peludo de Oro

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Unfortunately, we have to live in reality. Those are examples which have evolved with their own histories, but the historical development there is the important thing. In reality:

If a county (equivalent to state) decides that it wants to secede, there is going to be a war.

If a city decides that it wants to secede from an existing nation state, it is going to be stomped flat.

If a house decides that it wants to secede, it is going to be ignored (unless it starts messing with taxes, at which point see above).

In reality, it may be possible for Scotland and Wales to secede from the Union. They are countries; there is an existing point of division there, even if it is one that is deliberately misrepresented by nationalists on all sides. Doing so is likely to be a tangled and messy situation.

What often gets glossed over in the idea that everyone should be able to determine their own governance is that actually, the effects of deciding you don't want to play by the same rules as your neighbours any more isn't just a matter for you. If Scotland secedes, Scottish business needs to decide what to do about this; so does English business and the English government needs to decide how it is going to relate to this other, smaller state in its borders.

England has a preexisting claim to all the land in England. Britain has a claim to all the land in Britain. We can decide to renege on that and divvy it up again according to those national boundaries, but land doesn't (believe it or not) belong to the people who live on it. Land belongs to the bodies which claim it. In this case it is largely England which 'owns' the land that constitutes the British Isles.

You can't just decide that you're going to declare your 'ownership' of a city or a house more important that England's ownership of it. England has a claim stretching back hundreds of years into the past and with an unspoken pact to continue to protect that land hundreds of years into the future.

Nations are historical constructs, and tend to be created only when other nations cease to exist and can no longer enforce their claim over the land that they define as theirs. I sincerely doubt that 'England' is going anywhere any time soon, even if 'Britain' does, so aside from all the logistical points as to why arguing for devolution down to such small levels is ridiculous, there's the practical point that they will fucking kill you before they let that idea get any traction.
I had an existential crisis and all I got was this stupid gender.

Nephew Twiddleton

Not every secession leads to war. SO in a hypothetical situation where Cornwall secedes, do you actually see war happening? Or do you see more of a "ok, guys, have fun in your sandbox. Dinner will be on the table when you're tired of playing in it."? And what is the basis of the claim that England owns the land? Does it come down from the Royal Family? If so, how seriously would the English government or the English people take that, if the Queen were to come up and say, "This is my property, where's your rent payment?" I ask because this is the first that I'm hearing about it, and don't know how that concept still works in the modern day where your feudal system is more an excuse for your old money to have fancy titles than anything else.

And yes, I understand that Scottish and English business will have to figure out how they relate to each other and everything. But again, that comes down to what sort of independence that the Scots would get. Are they going to set up a wholly independent republic? Are they going to have a separate parliament but continue to have the Queen as head of state? Is the Scottish pound still going to be pegged to the English pound? Is the UK going to turn into some sort of confederacy, a bunch of Canadas, a collection of Commonwealth states? What? These are all things that effect the how. So, yeah, if they can figure out how to make it work, great. I highly doubt England is about to go to war with anyone over them leaving the Union, regardless of size of that seceding area.
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Scribbly

Quote from: Billy the Twid on January 11, 2012, 03:41:05 PM
Not every secession leads to war. SO in a hypothetical situation where Cornwall secedes, do you actually see war happening? Or do you see more of a "ok, guys, have fun in your sandbox. Dinner will be on the table when you're tired of playing in it."? And what is the basis of the claim that England owns the land? Does it come down from the Royal Family? If so, how seriously would the English government or the English people take that, if the Queen were to come up and say, "This is my property, where's your rent payment?" I ask because this is the first that I'm hearing about it, and don't know how that concept still works in the modern day where your feudal system is more an excuse for your old money to have fancy titles than anything else.

And yes, I understand that Scottish and English business will have to figure out how they relate to each other and everything. But again, that comes down to what sort of independence that the Scots would get. Are they going to set up a wholly independent republic? Are they going to have a separate parliament but continue to have the Queen as head of state? Is the Scottish pound still going to be pegged to the English pound? Is the UK going to turn into some sort of confederacy, a bunch of Canadas, a collection of Commonwealth states? What? These are all things that effect the how. So, yeah, if they can figure out how to make it work, great. I highly doubt England is about to go to war with anyone over them leaving the Union, regardless of size of that seceding area.

I don't have access to my textbooks at work and I can't remember the exact acts off the top of my head. I will try and find time to look them up and provide references for 'where England comes from' then.

In the bizarre hypothetical world where Cornwall decides that it is no longer going to recognize the authority of Westminster, will no longer pay taxes and secedes completely... yes, I believe the army would be used to stop that, after all other measures fail. How do you think America would react if Texas decided that they're going to make good on their desire to secede?
I had an existential crisis and all I got was this stupid gender.

Nephew Twiddleton

Quote from: Demolition_Squid on January 11, 2012, 03:48:22 PM
Quote from: Billy the Twid on January 11, 2012, 03:41:05 PM
Not every secession leads to war. SO in a hypothetical situation where Cornwall secedes, do you actually see war happening? Or do you see more of a "ok, guys, have fun in your sandbox. Dinner will be on the table when you're tired of playing in it."? And what is the basis of the claim that England owns the land? Does it come down from the Royal Family? If so, how seriously would the English government or the English people take that, if the Queen were to come up and say, "This is my property, where's your rent payment?" I ask because this is the first that I'm hearing about it, and don't know how that concept still works in the modern day where your feudal system is more an excuse for your old money to have fancy titles than anything else.

And yes, I understand that Scottish and English business will have to figure out how they relate to each other and everything. But again, that comes down to what sort of independence that the Scots would get. Are they going to set up a wholly independent republic? Are they going to have a separate parliament but continue to have the Queen as head of state? Is the Scottish pound still going to be pegged to the English pound? Is the UK going to turn into some sort of confederacy, a bunch of Canadas, a collection of Commonwealth states? What? These are all things that effect the how. So, yeah, if they can figure out how to make it work, great. I highly doubt England is about to go to war with anyone over them leaving the Union, regardless of size of that seceding area.

I don't have access to my textbooks at work and I can't remember the exact acts off the top of my head. I will try and find time to look them up and provide references for 'where England comes from' then.

In the bizarre hypothetical world where Cornwall decides that it is no longer going to recognize the authority of Westminster, will no longer pay taxes and secedes completely... yes, I believe the army would be used to stop that, after all other measures fail. How do you think America would react if Texas decided that they're going to make good on their desire to secede?

We'd celebrate.  Seriously though, we've gone through the secession thing before, and war only broke out because the Confederacy attacked the Union over a military fort on an island off the coast of South Carolina. We weren't going to do anything. Lincoln had already said that while the USA would not recognize the CSA, it wouldn't step in and interfere either.
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Soy El Vaquero Peludo de Oro

TIM AM I, PRIMARY OF THE EXTRA-ATMOSPHERIC SIMIANS

Scribbly

Yeah.

If you are naive enough to think that any nation state is going to allow a threat to its sovereignty as profound as 'we just don't recognize you any more' coming from within its own borders, I don't really know what to tell you.
I had an existential crisis and all I got was this stupid gender.

Nephew Twiddleton

Quote from: Demolition_Squid on January 11, 2012, 03:56:24 PM
Yeah.

If you are naive enough to think that any nation state is going to allow a threat to its sovereignty as profound as 'we just don't recognize you any more' coming from within its own borders, I don't really know what to tell you.

Which perspective are you taking, that of the Confederacy or the Union?

Because if you're saying that the US would have eventually attacked the CS, I doubt it.
Strange and Terrible Organ Laminator of Yesterday's Heavy Scene
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Soy El Vaquero Peludo de Oro

TIM AM I, PRIMARY OF THE EXTRA-ATMOSPHERIC SIMIANS

Scribbly

I'm grounding things in the modern day. Where we live. Not being a scholar of the American Civil War, I have no idea what the circumstances were.
I had an existential crisis and all I got was this stupid gender.

Nephew Twiddleton

Quote from: Demolition_Squid on January 11, 2012, 04:04:45 PM
I'm grounding things in the modern day. Where we live. Not being a scholar of the American Civil War, I have no idea what the circumstances were.

You mentioned the possibility of Texas seceding. Since that did in fact happen, the Civil War was going to get mentioned.
Strange and Terrible Organ Laminator of Yesterday's Heavy Scene
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Soy El Vaquero Peludo de Oro

TIM AM I, PRIMARY OF THE EXTRA-ATMOSPHERIC SIMIANS

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And you think the US would allow Texas to secede in the modern day? Okay.
I had an existential crisis and all I got was this stupid gender.

Cain

You know who else thought all countries, cities, nations, ethnic groups and indeed political activist groups had the right to secede?

Trotsky, that's who.