Prop 8 Unconstitutional

[Roly Poly Oly-Garch]

It has rendered gay marriage irrelevant to the conversation, but it has not rendered the conversation irrelevant to gay marriage.

Exactly. Instead of "If you're not with us, you're against us", it's "If you're not with us, you're more effectively against those against us." A part of me would love to see the Supreme Court just pull the 14th on all remaining marriage inequality states, but I gotta kinda bow to the wisdom of letting people, their states and their legislatures just kinda wake up on their own, in their own time, as seems to be happening lately. Probably be considerably less blow-back that way, plus it kind of fills me with warm fuzzy's watching all that money, time, and energy go into passing Prop 8 only to have a comparably insignificant amount of resources accomplish striking it. And by smacking down Prop 8 and only Prop 8, enough denial is left intact to allow for the possibility that I'll get to see huge amounts of money, time and energy go into passing Prop 9, 10, 11, and so on. Call me a dreamer, but wouldn't it be fabulous if gay marriage did to the religious right what Afghanistan did to the Soviet Union?

That's not how it works, dude.

Yeah, I know. Can't break 'em, can't end 'em, probably can't outlive 'em.

I was here in Colorado when Amendment 2 got passed (the one they used to overturn prop . It was vulgar. Then when it got overturned and I got to hear where a lot of people stood, it was disappointing beyond all hell. Then there was the blow back and homophobic hats and t-shirts that read shit like "Homosexuality is an abomination, and it's kind of gross, too." Then there was the ass-rape parade float. Found out where even more people stood. Teachers, principals, friends...then a couple few ways to do Amendment 2 without the Amendment 2 part. Some fizzled, some had some wheels, if I remember correctly another vote came up and Amendment 2:2 got voted down. Then I think I started hearing about other states getting in, having some "anti" progress. Fucking sucked.

Then Matthew Shephard, the candlelight vigil out in front of PVH, the fucking "how come when this happens to a gay guy the media acts all concerned?" The first punch I threw the whole fucking time...not the last. Working door at the club provided a wealth of opportunities in that regard. And then I forgot to have the rage for a minute and just broke down and asked my cousin what's been known to all since she was 2. "No, I'm not. But thanks for asking. Everybody else just assumes." That was the very, very worst one of them all. Then I kinda let it pour at my college speech classmates...infomercial style presentation "FAGGOTS, the hate you can still get without a prescription". The response was as ____ as I had hoped it would be.

...and I'm rambling, and this is making me cry, and I'm not even out the 90's. and I really wish there was an inexhaustible supply of defeat to inflict here...because when the victim starts coming out in 'em, when they start laying out the injustice done to them, when all they did was fuck with people try to spit in their eye try to fight for their right to own it again when the souls they used to be able to decimate by just being polite enough to keep their community normal anonymously Lord how much I would love to see it crushed, trampled ground into grains of no uncertain terms--these "protectors", "defenders", "shit-belching, territorial, self-righteous MORALLY UPRIGHT MISERABLE FUCKING COWARDS ALL TUCKED SNUG AND INSULATED INSIDE THEIR AMNEOTIC VOMIT SACKS OF SELF DECEPTION, SMILING, GEE POP, AWW MOM, PICTURE PERFECT NICE NORMAL EVERYDAY DISCHARGE FROM SATANS BOILY TWAT." Fucking actually spent money, spent time, spent influence, actually WORKED TO continue to fuck with people's lives. Heh. Bankrupting the mormon church is one of my more tame revenge fantasies, to be sure.

[Doktor Howl]

It has rendered gay marriage irrelevant to the conversation, but it has not rendered the conversation irrelevant to gay marriage.

Exactly. Instead of "If you're not with us, you're against us", it's "If you're not with us, you're more effectively against those against us." A part of me would love to see the Supreme Court just pull the 14th on all remaining marriage inequality states, but I gotta kinda bow to the wisdom of letting people, their states and their legislatures just kinda wake up on their own, in their own time, as seems to be happening lately. Probably be considerably less blow-back that way, plus it kind of fills me with warm fuzzy's watching all that money, time, and energy go into passing Prop 8 only to have a comparably insignificant amount of resources accomplish striking it. And by smacking down Prop 8 and only Prop 8, enough denial is left intact to allow for the possibility that I'll get to see huge amounts of money, time and energy go into passing Prop 9, 10, 11, and so on. Call me a dreamer, but wouldn't it be fabulous if gay marriage did to the religious right what Afghanistan did to the Soviet Union?

That's not how it works, dude.

Yeah, I know. Can't break 'em, can't end 'em, probably can't outlive 'em.

I was here in Colorado when Amendment 2 got passed (the one they used to overturn prop . It was vulgar. Then when it got overturned and I got to hear where a lot of people stood, it was disappointing beyond all hell. Then there was the blow back and homophobic hats and t-shirts that read shit like "Homosexuality is an abomination, and it's kind of gross, too." Then there was the ass-rape parade float. Found out where even more people stood. Teachers, principals, friends...then a couple few ways to do Amendment 2 without the Amendment 2 part. Some fizzled, some had some wheels, if I remember correctly another vote came up and Amendment 2:2 got voted down. Then I think I started hearing about other states getting in, having some "anti" progress. Fucking sucked.

Then Matthew Shephard, the candlelight vigil out in front of PVH, the fucking "how come when this happens to a gay guy the media acts all concerned?" The first punch I threw the whole fucking time...not the last. Working door at the club provided a wealth of opportunities in that regard. And then I forgot to have the rage for a minute and just broke down and asked my cousin what's been known to all since she was 2. "No, I'm not. But thanks for asking. Everybody else just assumes." That was the very, very worst one of them all. Then I kinda let it pour at my college speech classmates...infomercial style presentation "FAGGOTS, the hate you can still get without a prescription". The response was as ____ as I had hoped it would be.

...and I'm rambling, and this is making me cry, and I'm not even out the 90's. and I really wish there was an inexhaustible supply of defeat to inflict here...because when the victim starts coming out in 'em, when they start laying out the injustice done to them, when all they did was fuck with people try to spit in their eye try to fight for their right to own it again when the souls they used to be able to decimate by just being polite enough to keep their community normal anonymously Lord how much I would love to see it crushed, trampled ground into grains of no uncertain terms--these "protectors", "defenders", "shit-belching, territorial, self-righteous MORALLY UPRIGHT MISERABLE FUCKING COWARDS ALL TUCKED SNUG AND INSULATED INSIDE THEIR AMNEOTIC VOMIT SACKS OF SELF DECEPTION, SMILING, GEE POP, AWW MOM, PICTURE PERFECT NICE NORMAL EVERYDAY DISCHARGE FROM SATANS BOILY TWAT." Fucking actually spent money, spent time, spent influence, actually WORKED TO continue to fuck with people's lives. Heh. Bankrupting the mormon church is one of my more tame revenge fantasies, to be sure.

I am Doktor Howl, and I approve of this rage.

[Doktor Howl]

Thing is, there's rights and there's privileges.  Rights are seized, and then assumed.  Privileges are granted, and can be rescinded. 

Rights have to apply to all citizens equally (or, in some cases, all persons), or they aren't rights.  Therefore, if a Gay citizen cannot marry the consenting adult of their choice, then MY rights in this matter have reverted to privilege.  That goes to any other right (speedy trial, jury trial, et al).

And I'll be damned if I allow anyone to take my rights away and hand me some allowances in their place.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

It has rendered gay marriage irrelevant to the conversation, but it has not rendered the conversation irrelevant to gay marriage.

Exactly. Instead of "If you're not with us, you're against us", it's "If you're not with us, you're more effectively against those against us." A part of me would love to see the Supreme Court just pull the 14th on all remaining marriage inequality states, but I gotta kinda bow to the wisdom of letting people, their states and their legislatures just kinda wake up on their own, in their own time, as seems to be happening lately. Probably be considerably less blow-back that way, plus it kind of fills me with warm fuzzy's watching all that money, time, and energy go into passing Prop 8 only to have a comparably insignificant amount of resources accomplish striking it. And by smacking down Prop 8 and only Prop 8, enough denial is left intact to allow for the possibility that I'll get to see huge amounts of money, time and energy go into passing Prop 9, 10, 11, and so on. Call me a dreamer, but wouldn't it be fabulous if gay marriage did to the religious right what Afghanistan did to the Soviet Union?

That's not how it works, dude.

Yeah, I know. Can't break 'em, can't end 'em, probably can't outlive 'em.

I was here in Colorado when Amendment 2 got passed (the one they used to overturn prop . It was vulgar. Then when it got overturned and I got to hear where a lot of people stood, it was disappointing beyond all hell. Then there was the blow back and homophobic hats and t-shirts that read shit like "Homosexuality is an abomination, and it's kind of gross, too." Then there was the ass-rape parade float. Found out where even more people stood. Teachers, principals, friends...then a couple few ways to do Amendment 2 without the Amendment 2 part. Some fizzled, some had some wheels, if I remember correctly another vote came up and Amendment 2:2 got voted down. Then I think I started hearing about other states getting in, having some "anti" progress. Fucking sucked.

Then Matthew Shephard, the candlelight vigil out in front of PVH, the fucking "how come when this happens to a gay guy the media acts all concerned?" The first punch I threw the whole fucking time...not the last. Working door at the club provided a wealth of opportunities in that regard. And then I forgot to have the rage for a minute and just broke down and asked my cousin what's been known to all since she was 2. "No, I'm not. But thanks for asking. Everybody else just assumes." That was the very, very worst one of them all. Then I kinda let it pour at my college speech classmates...infomercial style presentation "FAGGOTS, the hate you can still get without a prescription". The response was as ____ as I had hoped it would be.

...and I'm rambling, and this is making me cry, and I'm not even out the 90's. and I really wish there was an inexhaustible supply of defeat to inflict here...because when the victim starts coming out in 'em, when they start laying out the injustice done to them, when all they did was fuck with people try to spit in their eye try to fight for their right to own it again when the souls they used to be able to decimate by just being polite enough to keep their community normal anonymously Lord how much I would love to see it crushed, trampled ground into grains of no uncertain terms--these "protectors", "defenders", "shit-belching, territorial, self-righteous MORALLY UPRIGHT MISERABLE FUCKING COWARDS ALL TUCKED SNUG AND INSULATED INSIDE THEIR AMNEOTIC VOMIT SACKS OF SELF DECEPTION, SMILING, GEE POP, AWW MOM, PICTURE PERFECT NICE NORMAL EVERYDAY DISCHARGE FROM SATANS BOILY TWAT." Fucking actually spent money, spent time, spent influence, actually WORKED TO continue to fuck with people's lives. Heh. Bankrupting the mormon church is one of my more tame revenge fantasies, to be sure.

My point was that when a measure is overturned for being unconstitutional, they can't just go on and introduce more unconstitutional measures. It doesn't work that way. If it's overturned, and the decision is upheld on appeal, then that's it; the only way to prevail would be to amend the section of the Constitution that it was found to violate.

[AFK]

That's true in theory.  However, that doesn't stop people from introducing new measures that they would argue is based on a new or different argument or premise as relates to the Constitution. 

[Roly Poly Oly-Garch]

It has rendered gay marriage irrelevant to the conversation, but it has not rendered the conversation irrelevant to gay marriage.

Exactly. Instead of "If you're not with us, you're against us", it's "If you're not with us, you're more effectively against those against us." A part of me would love to see the Supreme Court just pull the 14th on all remaining marriage inequality states, but I gotta kinda bow to the wisdom of letting people, their states and their legislatures just kinda wake up on their own, in their own time, as seems to be happening lately. Probably be considerably less blow-back that way, plus it kind of fills me with warm fuzzy's watching all that money, time, and energy go into passing Prop 8 only to have a comparably insignificant amount of resources accomplish striking it. And by smacking down Prop 8 and only Prop 8, enough denial is left intact to allow for the possibility that I'll get to see huge amounts of money, time and energy go into passing Prop 9, 10, 11, and so on. Call me a dreamer, but wouldn't it be fabulous if gay marriage did to the religious right what Afghanistan did to the Soviet Union?

That's not how it works, dude.

Yeah, I know. Can't break 'em, can't end 'em, probably can't outlive 'em.

I was here in Colorado when Amendment 2 got passed (the one they used to overturn prop . It was vulgar. Then when it got overturned and I got to hear where a lot of people stood, it was disappointing beyond all hell. Then there was the blow back and homophobic hats and t-shirts that read shit like "Homosexuality is an abomination, and it's kind of gross, too." Then there was the ass-rape parade float. Found out where even more people stood. Teachers, principals, friends...then a couple few ways to do Amendment 2 without the Amendment 2 part. Some fizzled, some had some wheels, if I remember correctly another vote came up and Amendment 2:2 got voted down. Then I think I started hearing about other states getting in, having some "anti" progress. Fucking sucked.

Then Matthew Shephard, the candlelight vigil out in front of PVH, the fucking "how come when this happens to a gay guy the media acts all concerned?" The first punch I threw the whole fucking time...not the last. Working door at the club provided a wealth of opportunities in that regard. And then I forgot to have the rage for a minute and just broke down and asked my cousin what's been known to all since she was 2. "No, I'm not. But thanks for asking. Everybody else just assumes." That was the very, very worst one of them all. Then I kinda let it pour at my college speech classmates...infomercial style presentation "FAGGOTS, the hate you can still get without a prescription". The response was as ____ as I had hoped it would be.

...and I'm rambling, and this is making me cry, and I'm not even out the 90's. and I really wish there was an inexhaustible supply of defeat to inflict here...because when the victim starts coming out in 'em, when they start laying out the injustice done to them, when all they did was fuck with people try to spit in their eye try to fight for their right to own it again when the souls they used to be able to decimate by just being polite enough to keep their community normal anonymously Lord how much I would love to see it crushed, trampled ground into grains of no uncertain terms--these "protectors", "defenders", "shit-belching, territorial, self-righteous MORALLY UPRIGHT MISERABLE FUCKING COWARDS ALL TUCKED SNUG AND INSULATED INSIDE THEIR AMNEOTIC VOMIT SACKS OF SELF DECEPTION, SMILING, GEE POP, AWW MOM, PICTURE PERFECT NICE NORMAL EVERYDAY DISCHARGE FROM SATANS BOILY TWAT." Fucking actually spent money, spent time, spent influence, actually WORKED TO continue to fuck with people's lives. Heh. Bankrupting the mormon church is one of my more tame revenge fantasies, to be sure.

My point was that when a measure is overturned for being unconstitutional, they can't just go on and introduce more unconstitutional measures. It doesn't work that way. If it's overturned, and the decision is upheld on appeal, then that's it; the only way to prevail would be to amend the section of the Constitution that it was found to violate.

...or try to accomplish the same thing in a different manner. Never holds, but gets tried a lot. Roe v Wade was a while ago. How many "life begins at conception" bills are floating around out there this very minute?

[AFK]

They want their side to win.  If it were purely an objective exercise in law-making/regulations, yeah, they would read the writing on the wall and pack it in.  But this is an irrational, faith-based initiative.  Courts aren't going to stop them.  They will keep bringing up initiatives to keep gay marriage from happening.  Unfortunately, they have just enough support to fuel that fire. 

[Doktor Howl]

They want their side to win.  If it were purely an objective exercise in law-making/regulations, yeah, they would read the writing on the wall and pack it in.  But this is an irrational, faith-based initiative.  Courts aren't going to stop them.  They will keep bringing up initiatives to keep gay marriage from happening.  Unfortunately, they have just enough support to fuel that fire.

The same battle happened inre: interracial marriages.  The good guys won.  We'll win again.

[Doktor Howl]

It has rendered gay marriage irrelevant to the conversation, but it has not rendered the conversation irrelevant to gay marriage.

Exactly. Instead of "If you're not with us, you're against us", it's "If you're not with us, you're more effectively against those against us." A part of me would love to see the Supreme Court just pull the 14th on all remaining marriage inequality states, but I gotta kinda bow to the wisdom of letting people, their states and their legislatures just kinda wake up on their own, in their own time, as seems to be happening lately. Probably be considerably less blow-back that way, plus it kind of fills me with warm fuzzy's watching all that money, time, and energy go into passing Prop 8 only to have a comparably insignificant amount of resources accomplish striking it. And by smacking down Prop 8 and only Prop 8, enough denial is left intact to allow for the possibility that I'll get to see huge amounts of money, time and energy go into passing Prop 9, 10, 11, and so on. Call me a dreamer, but wouldn't it be fabulous if gay marriage did to the religious right what Afghanistan did to the Soviet Union?

That's not how it works, dude.

Yeah, I know. Can't break 'em, can't end 'em, probably can't outlive 'em.

I was here in Colorado when Amendment 2 got passed (the one they used to overturn prop . It was vulgar. Then when it got overturned and I got to hear where a lot of people stood, it was disappointing beyond all hell. Then there was the blow back and homophobic hats and t-shirts that read shit like "Homosexuality is an abomination, and it's kind of gross, too." Then there was the ass-rape parade float. Found out where even more people stood. Teachers, principals, friends...then a couple few ways to do Amendment 2 without the Amendment 2 part. Some fizzled, some had some wheels, if I remember correctly another vote came up and Amendment 2:2 got voted down. Then I think I started hearing about other states getting in, having some "anti" progress. Fucking sucked.

Then Matthew Shephard, the candlelight vigil out in front of PVH, the fucking "how come when this happens to a gay guy the media acts all concerned?" The first punch I threw the whole fucking time...not the last. Working door at the club provided a wealth of opportunities in that regard. And then I forgot to have the rage for a minute and just broke down and asked my cousin what's been known to all since she was 2. "No, I'm not. But thanks for asking. Everybody else just assumes." That was the very, very worst one of them all. Then I kinda let it pour at my college speech classmates...infomercial style presentation "FAGGOTS, the hate you can still get without a prescription". The response was as ____ as I had hoped it would be.

...and I'm rambling, and this is making me cry, and I'm not even out the 90's. and I really wish there was an inexhaustible supply of defeat to inflict here...because when the victim starts coming out in 'em, when they start laying out the injustice done to them, when all they did was fuck with people try to spit in their eye try to fight for their right to own it again when the souls they used to be able to decimate by just being polite enough to keep their community normal anonymously Lord how much I would love to see it crushed, trampled ground into grains of no uncertain terms--these "protectors", "defenders", "shit-belching, territorial, self-righteous MORALLY UPRIGHT MISERABLE FUCKING COWARDS ALL TUCKED SNUG AND INSULATED INSIDE THEIR AMNEOTIC VOMIT SACKS OF SELF DECEPTION, SMILING, GEE POP, AWW MOM, PICTURE PERFECT NICE NORMAL EVERYDAY DISCHARGE FROM SATANS BOILY TWAT." Fucking actually spent money, spent time, spent influence, actually WORKED TO continue to fuck with people's lives. Heh. Bankrupting the mormon church is one of my more tame revenge fantasies, to be sure.

My point was that when a measure is overturned for being unconstitutional, they can't just go on and introduce more unconstitutional measures. It doesn't work that way. If it's overturned, and the decision is upheld on appeal, then that's it; the only way to prevail would be to amend the section of the Constitution that it was found to violate.

...or try to accomplish the same thing in a different manner. Never holds, but gets tried a lot. Roe v Wade was a while ago. How many "life begins at conception" bills are floating around out there this very minute?

Name one battle that only had to be won once.

[AFK]

They want their side to win.  If it were purely an objective exercise in law-making/regulations, yeah, they would read the writing on the wall and pack it in.  But this is an irrational, faith-based initiative.  Courts aren't going to stop them.  They will keep bringing up initiatives to keep gay marriage from happening.  Unfortunately, they have just enough support to fuel that fire.

The same battle happened inre: interracial marriages.  The good guys won.  We'll win again.

Eventually, I'm sure we will, and it seems to be crawling in the right direction.  But they're going to keep plugging away to try to slow or halt that crawl.  They've done it here in Maine. 

[Roly Poly Oly-Garch]

They want their side to win.  If it were purely an objective exercise in law-making/regulations, yeah, they would read the writing on the wall and pack it in.  But this is an irrational, faith-based initiative.  Courts aren't going to stop them.  They will keep bringing up initiatives to keep gay marriage from happening.  Unfortunately, they have just enough support to fuel that fire.

The same battle happened inre: interracial marriages.  The good guys won.  We'll win again.

Watched a documentary on Loving v Virginia the other night. Tear jerker, that. Right case, right folks, right time, right court, right slimy council for the state, even.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

They want their side to win.  If it were purely an objective exercise in law-making/regulations, yeah, they would read the writing on the wall and pack it in.  But this is an irrational, faith-based initiative.  Courts aren't going to stop them.  They will keep bringing up initiatives to keep gay marriage from happening.  Unfortunately, they have just enough support to fuel that fire.

The same battle happened inre: interracial marriages.  The good guys won.  We'll win again.

This.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

It has rendered gay marriage irrelevant to the conversation, but it has not rendered the conversation irrelevant to gay marriage.

Exactly. Instead of "If you're not with us, you're against us", it's "If you're not with us, you're more effectively against those against us." A part of me would love to see the Supreme Court just pull the 14th on all remaining marriage inequality states, but I gotta kinda bow to the wisdom of letting people, their states and their legislatures just kinda wake up on their own, in their own time, as seems to be happening lately. Probably be considerably less blow-back that way, plus it kind of fills me with warm fuzzy's watching all that money, time, and energy go into passing Prop 8 only to have a comparably insignificant amount of resources accomplish striking it. And by smacking down Prop 8 and only Prop 8, enough denial is left intact to allow for the possibility that I'll get to see huge amounts of money, time and energy go into passing Prop 9, 10, 11, and so on. Call me a dreamer, but wouldn't it be fabulous if gay marriage did to the religious right what Afghanistan did to the Soviet Union?

That's not how it works, dude.

Yeah, I know. Can't break 'em, can't end 'em, probably can't outlive 'em.

I was here in Colorado when Amendment 2 got passed (the one they used to overturn prop . It was vulgar. Then when it got overturned and I got to hear where a lot of people stood, it was disappointing beyond all hell. Then there was the blow back and homophobic hats and t-shirts that read shit like "Homosexuality is an abomination, and it's kind of gross, too." Then there was the ass-rape parade float. Found out where even more people stood. Teachers, principals, friends...then a couple few ways to do Amendment 2 without the Amendment 2 part. Some fizzled, some had some wheels, if I remember correctly another vote came up and Amendment 2:2 got voted down. Then I think I started hearing about other states getting in, having some "anti" progress. Fucking sucked.

Then Matthew Shephard, the candlelight vigil out in front of PVH, the fucking "how come when this happens to a gay guy the media acts all concerned?" The first punch I threw the whole fucking time...not the last. Working door at the club provided a wealth of opportunities in that regard. And then I forgot to have the rage for a minute and just broke down and asked my cousin what's been known to all since she was 2. "No, I'm not. But thanks for asking. Everybody else just assumes." That was the very, very worst one of them all. Then I kinda let it pour at my college speech classmates...infomercial style presentation "FAGGOTS, the hate you can still get without a prescription". The response was as ____ as I had hoped it would be.

...and I'm rambling, and this is making me cry, and I'm not even out the 90's. and I really wish there was an inexhaustible supply of defeat to inflict here...because when the victim starts coming out in 'em, when they start laying out the injustice done to them, when all they did was fuck with people try to spit in their eye try to fight for their right to own it again when the souls they used to be able to decimate by just being polite enough to keep their community normal anonymously Lord how much I would love to see it crushed, trampled ground into grains of no uncertain terms--these "protectors", "defenders", "shit-belching, territorial, self-righteous MORALLY UPRIGHT MISERABLE FUCKING COWARDS ALL TUCKED SNUG AND INSULATED INSIDE THEIR AMNEOTIC VOMIT SACKS OF SELF DECEPTION, SMILING, GEE POP, AWW MOM, PICTURE PERFECT NICE NORMAL EVERYDAY DISCHARGE FROM SATANS BOILY TWAT." Fucking actually spent money, spent time, spent influence, actually WORKED TO continue to fuck with people's lives. Heh. Bankrupting the mormon church is one of my more tame revenge fantasies, to be sure.

My point was that when a measure is overturned for being unconstitutional, they can't just go on and introduce more unconstitutional measures. It doesn't work that way. If it's overturned, and the decision is upheld on appeal, then that's it; the only way to prevail would be to amend the section of the Constitution that it was found to violate.

...or try to accomplish the same thing in a different manner. Never holds, but gets tried a lot. Roe v Wade was a while ago. How many "life begins at conception" bills are floating around out there this very minute?

Name one battle that only had to be won once.

Annnnd this.

It's not like you ever just get to sit back and stop striving. There is no arena of life where that works. We strive for food, shelter, love, justice, and anything else worth having in life.

I certainly don't accept the defeatist mindset, and I never will.

[Doktor Howl]

Annnnd this.

It's not like you ever just get to sit back and stop striving. There is no arena of life where that works. We strive for food, shelter, love, justice, and anything else worth having in life.

I certainly don't accept the defeatist mindset, and I never will.

Life is short, and everyone's gotta go sooner or later.  What's important is to leave the world a little bit better than you found it.

And there's no denying that things ARE better.  Every decade is a little bit nicer, in many ways, than the one before it...Just compare today with 100 years ago.  Or 67 years ago, for that matter.

It might be hard to keep perspective when you're dealing with religious nuts and weird fucking teabaggers, but things are, in fact, rolling right along.  Nobody ever said it was going to be quick or easy.

[Roly Poly Oly-Garch]

It has rendered gay marriage irrelevant to the conversation, but it has not rendered the conversation irrelevant to gay marriage.

Exactly. Instead of "If you're not with us, you're against us", it's "If you're not with us, you're more effectively against those against us." A part of me would love to see the Supreme Court just pull the 14th on all remaining marriage inequality states, but I gotta kinda bow to the wisdom of letting people, their states and their legislatures just kinda wake up on their own, in their own time, as seems to be happening lately. Probably be considerably less blow-back that way, plus it kind of fills me with warm fuzzy's watching all that money, time, and energy go into passing Prop 8 only to have a comparably insignificant amount of resources accomplish striking it. And by smacking down Prop 8 and only Prop 8, enough denial is left intact to allow for the possibility that I'll get to see huge amounts of money, time and energy go into passing Prop 9, 10, 11, and so on. Call me a dreamer, but wouldn't it be fabulous if gay marriage did to the religious right what Afghanistan did to the Soviet Union?

That's not how it works, dude.

Yeah, I know. Can't break 'em, can't end 'em, probably can't outlive 'em.

I was here in Colorado when Amendment 2 got passed (the one they used to overturn prop . It was vulgar. Then when it got overturned and I got to hear where a lot of people stood, it was disappointing beyond all hell. Then there was the blow back and homophobic hats and t-shirts that read shit like "Homosexuality is an abomination, and it's kind of gross, too." Then there was the ass-rape parade float. Found out where even more people stood. Teachers, principals, friends...then a couple few ways to do Amendment 2 without the Amendment 2 part. Some fizzled, some had some wheels, if I remember correctly another vote came up and Amendment 2:2 got voted down. Then I think I started hearing about other states getting in, having some "anti" progress. Fucking sucked.

Then Matthew Shephard, the candlelight vigil out in front of PVH, the fucking "how come when this happens to a gay guy the media acts all concerned?" The first punch I threw the whole fucking time...not the last. Working door at the club provided a wealth of opportunities in that regard. And then I forgot to have the rage for a minute and just broke down and asked my cousin what's been known to all since she was 2. "No, I'm not. But thanks for asking. Everybody else just assumes." That was the very, very worst one of them all. Then I kinda let it pour at my college speech classmates...infomercial style presentation "FAGGOTS, the hate you can still get without a prescription". The response was as ____ as I had hoped it would be.

...and I'm rambling, and this is making me cry, and I'm not even out the 90's. and I really wish there was an inexhaustible supply of defeat to inflict here...because when the victim starts coming out in 'em, when they start laying out the injustice done to them, when all they did was fuck with people try to spit in their eye try to fight for their right to own it again when the souls they used to be able to decimate by just being polite enough to keep their community normal anonymously Lord how much I would love to see it crushed, trampled ground into grains of no uncertain terms--these "protectors", "defenders", "shit-belching, territorial, self-righteous MORALLY UPRIGHT MISERABLE FUCKING COWARDS ALL TUCKED SNUG AND INSULATED INSIDE THEIR AMNEOTIC VOMIT SACKS OF SELF DECEPTION, SMILING, GEE POP, AWW MOM, PICTURE PERFECT NICE NORMAL EVERYDAY DISCHARGE FROM SATANS BOILY TWAT." Fucking actually spent money, spent time, spent influence, actually WORKED TO continue to fuck with people's lives. Heh. Bankrupting the mormon church is one of my more tame revenge fantasies, to be sure.

My point was that when a measure is overturned for being unconstitutional, they can't just go on and introduce more unconstitutional measures. It doesn't work that way. If it's overturned, and the decision is upheld on appeal, then that's it; the only way to prevail would be to amend the section of the Constitution that it was found to violate.

...or try to accomplish the same thing in a different manner. Never holds, but gets tried a lot. Roe v Wade was a while ago. How many "life begins at conception" bills are floating around out there this very minute?

Name one battle that only had to be won once.

Annnnd this.

It's not like you ever just get to sit back and stop striving. There is no arena of life where that works. We strive for food, shelter, love, justice, and anything else worth having in life.

I certainly don't accept the defeatist mindset, and I never will.

I got nothing for gay marriage, though. The opposition is just not...well not at all, really. These are the kind of debates that I just stop having at a certain point. Obvious versus whatever the next not really your reason you can come up with as your reason. Political "pledge", I guess. At a certain point when enough of the population feels the same way, then it's just a matter of keeping the vandals in line...those who break windows, spray paint cars, pass dumb fucking constitutional amendments, etc. I wouldn't be at all surprised if anti gay-marriage was meaningfully tucked in for the night well before reproductive rights stops chattering.