On Freedom of Speech, Rush and the Turkish viewpoint

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

No EU membership for the USA then!

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

Wow, these are broad arguments that certainly undermine my position. I was caught up in the specific argument of the 1900's events and the technical definition and paid less attention to the previous atrocities.

The documents I had read particularly a translation of the French minister to Instabul (excerpt for "The Yellow Book") during the 1890's paints the situation as an Ottoman response to assassinations and attempted rebellions.

Again, thanks guys. This is me throwing in the towel on the topic.

Oddly enough, I was unable to find any accounts of Armenians wiping out Muslim cities.

That was specifically in the provinces of Van and Bitlis according to Russian reports, British reports and the Franciscan monks from that area. The British specifically calls several of the events massacres. This from the 1890's through the first decade of the 20th century (throughout the Caucuses War).

The city of Van itself saw 60,000 Turks killed during the Armenian revolt (March 1915).

I did, however, find the account of Smyrna, in which the Turks burned a city full of Armenians.

Smyrna is Izmir, right near where I'm living. This was an interesting mess. The Greeks had invaded the city and eventually fought quite deeply into the country. As the Ottomans beat them back, the Greeks burned cities that they abandoned. Izmir was the last battle. The Turks won back the city and that night, the Greek and Armenian sections of the city were set ablaze. The Turk and Jewish areas were not.

According to the Armenians and Greeks, the Turkish soldiers set the fires. According to the Turks and the Jews the Greeks started the fires. The Turks argue that the Greeks had burned all the other cities (not really debated) and they had just won back their third largest city... so why would they set it on fire?

There is one eyewitness report from someone in the Jewish section who claimed The Turks had trapped some Greeks in a building and other Greek soldiers (or Armenian rebels) started a fire to distract the soldiers and get their friends to safety. An Armenian account says the same thing except that the Turks started the fire to force out the soldiers. Other witnesses claim they saw Turks setting fires and still others claim that they saw Greeks starting the fires.

The worst part of that event, though, in my mind, was the complete lack of humanity on the part of the Turks later that night. Many Greeks were crowded against the sea to avoid the fires. A panic started and a lot of people ended up in the freezing cold water. The Turkish warships that were there in the waters did nothing to help those people. I think only one ship, a Japanese Merchant ship, dumped its cargo and worked to save people.

[Cain]

Bump, to point out:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/greenslade/2012/dec/11/journalist-safety-press-freedom

Turkey, the world's worst jailer of journalists
Turkey has 49 journalists behind bars, with dozens of Kurdish reporters and editors held on terror-related charges. A number of other journalists are detained on charges of involvement in anti-government plots.

In 2012, CPJ conducted an extensive review of imprisonments in Turkey and found that broadly worded anti-terror and penal code statutes have allowed the authorities to conflate the coverage of banned groups and the investigation of sensitive topics with outright terrorism or other anti-state activity.

These statutes "make no distinction between journalists exercising freedom of expression and [individuals] aiding terrorism," said Mehmet Ali Birand, an editor with the Istanbul-based station Kanal D. He calls the use of anti-state laws against journalists a "national disease."

Birand said "the government does not differentiate between these two major things: freedom of expression and terrorism."

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Nope, no media censorship in Turkey! 

[Bu🤠ns]

This is quite interesting.

I suppose that pretty much sums up the whole thread.