[Splintered] Manipulation: What defines it?

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Those signs look an awful lot like Trebuchet...

They are. Just not in the way you expect.

I would have been very disappointed in this board if no one went for that joke.

What joke?

[Q. G. Pennyworth]

Those signs look an awful lot like Trebuchet...

They are. Just not in the way you expect.

I would have been very disappointed in this board if no one went for that joke.

What joke?

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Those signs look an awful lot like Trebuchet...

They are. Just not in the way you expect.

I would have been very disappointed in this board if no one went for that joke.

What joke?

I know what a trebuchet looks like.

[Don Coyote]

I'm the girl driving 10 mph below the speed limit and staying in the middle lane so I can read the signs and make sure I don't make any mistakes. Then, I will invariably figure out where I need to be, drop it down to 5th, speeeeeed waaaaay the fuck up and aggressively get in the correct lane before it's too late. You will shit yourself a little and go "WHAT THE FUCK IS THIS CRAZY BITCH DOING?!?"

Ha ha.

I fucking hate people that do that. Even when I am driving someplace I don't know, I drive the speed limit, at a minimum, and I have shitty ass distance vision so I won't be able read the signs as soon as the rest of you guys.

The good news is that the highway signage is currently being replaced with a typeface designed specifically to withstand things like reflective glare in the fog and still remain legible.

Hopefully this will improve the chances of you making it out to Portland—you missed a good time with Alty and an epic house party.

I didn't come because my right eye decided that it didn't want to focus correctly, thus depriving me of depth perception, while at the same time giving me conflicting visual information. In short, double vision and a terrible headache. I could have made it, but I would have been in a terrible mood, and drinking would have knocked me the fuck out. As for Alty, I guess I will have to invade Alaska at some point.

[Roly Poly Oly-Garch]

Derrived from this thread: http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php/topic,31878.0.html which started to go off-course into a discussion about manipulation which got me thinking about some stuff not directly related to the concepts of labeling and chunking so I felt it deserved its own thread instead of jacking that one off in a different direction.

So, to pick up: manipulation is such a subjective word and concept, right? I mean what you define as "coercive" may not be to others.

I dated a guy who accused a lot of people of trying to "manipulate" him and actually once told me he considers himself a veritable expert on the subject of deducing people's intent since he'd been to years worth of therapy that trained him to be acutely aware of people's coercive tactics. Yet, he's an admitted proponent of the Seduction Society/Pickup Artist techniques which he sees as "self-marketing," a harmless way of maximizing the efficiency of your influence with people to increase your probability of desirable outcomes with them. Sounds perfectly reasonable, right?

Okay, I once saw him send this link to a friend: http://www.attractology.com/articles/inner-game/cat-string-theory/

Here's more off that site: http://www.attractology.com/2010/03/engagedisengagereengage-edr-technique/
and: http://www.attractology.com/2010/03/call/

This, in particular, bothers me:

5) Whatever story you go into, try somehow incorporating her into it, disqualifying her (if possible) during the story and later try to make her qualify herself to you. Not as much as you would do in person but just a small little disqualification could be thrown in there

And how different is that from The Rules of the late 90s?
Parodied on SNL ("Get the ring!"): http://www.nbc.com/saturday-night-live/video/the-rules-show/1354349

So what say you? Isn't this the very definition of being manipulative (as we've come to understand the negative connotation)? Or is this stuff (as my ex understands it) a harmless/necessary part of being effective socially?

I wonder if dude has stopped to relate how much he leans on horse-shit like this to how much he perceives others to be manipulating him.

Had to break up with a woman who was otherwise great fun because she was pulling a bunch of manipulative crap. Thing was, I knew that was her shtick going in. But I spent 6 months behind a strict friend line calling her on her shit when she'd do it with others. When we did hook up, there weren't any expectations or questions asked. So when she started trying to play with me I was

I asked her why she felt that was a thing to do considering A: I had already called her on it a thousand times when it was 0 stakes. and B: There was no point since things were well casual.

She admitted that she thought that's just what people do. I had never once heard her complain about others manipulating her. I'm wondering if she had not been aware of how she was doing it herself, or not been willing to own up to it, if she wouldn't have been more accusatory of others.

Projection is one of the most common behaviors I've seen in abusive/dysfunctional relationships. Does your ex call others manipulative because he can't see his behavior that way? I would think the more "success" a person had employing techniques instead of just FUCKING BEING THEMSELVES, the more insecure they'd become. Confidence in running game is not self-confidence--just the opposite. Can't trust yourself. Can't trust others.

[East Coast Hustle]

Well put.

[navkat]

Seconded. I think that's precisely what it must be.

I won't lie, I had ulterior motives for posting this here. The other thread got me thinking a lot about again this after a while of not thinking about it. I tried very hard to present it in a way that was as accurate a representation of how he presented this stuff to myself and others.

The fact is: he was a mindfuck. I'm not sure if he believes his own baloney and is a genuine paranoid mess or if he doesn't and it's all premeditated evil. I can say that he projects the image that he's someone who believes people have treated him unfairly and deceitfully but that he has not and believes himself to be honest and fair. I certainly believed his baloney.

I will also state that I have caught the guy in lies and have kept my mouth shut. For the most part, they were small lies, mostly to make himself look successful or to get himself out of uncomfortable social situations. Only three times in the years I've known him have I caught him in lies that I considered more serious.

But one of these was to tell me that he never lies...or hasn't in many years--at a time when saying this very thing was being used to attack my character and my integrity in a situation where his support, trust, kindness and cooperation was imperative.
I consider that to be:
1. a sign of mental illness as he should at least be comfortable admitting "No, you're right. I don't always tell the truth. I am judging you too harshly and making assumptions based on unequal standards."
2. a sign of mental illness because he actually believes this to be true and is therefore, comfortable letting his deceits "slip his mind."
3. a sign that he is evil because he is deliberately out to deceive to get his way or put him in a more advantageous position and has no conscience about it.

I believe that people usually have good intent but that sometimes, people lie. They do it out of fear, they do it because they didn't think their answer through before they spoke (I've done this. I said to myself after the fact "Now why the fuck did I say THAT? That soesn't even make sense, now that I think of it") and sometimes, they lie out of necessity.

The lies that are indicative of bad character are the ones told out of a desire for personal gain or with the deliberate intent of causing harm.

Everyone tries to minimize their bad side and present the best of themselves when dating new people but I believe being a "Pickup Artist" is manipulation in the most negative connotation because you are deliberately deploying psychological tactics to get people to make false conclusions, to elicit and invoke their fears of scarcity, rejection and inferiority, to utilize their vulnerabilities...basically tailoring their perception for personal gain. That gain doesn't have to be sex, per se but telling yourself your intentions and ends justify the means is psychotic. It doesn't matter if what I want is sex, money or if I intend to commit to them. If I "trick" someone into becoming attached to an unnatural/designed representation of myself, I am violating their right to unhampered personal choice.

[Roly Poly Oly-Garch]

but one of these was to tell me that he never lies...or hasn't in many years--at a time when saying this very thing was being used to attack my character and my integrity in a situation where his support, trust, kindness and cooperation was imperative.
I consider that to be:
1. a sign of mental illness as he should at least be comfortable admitting "No, you're right. I don't always tell the truth. I am judging you too harshly and making assumptions based on unequal standards."
2. a sign of mental illness because he actually believes this to be true and is therefore, comfortable letting his deceits "slip his mind."
3. a sign that he is evil because he is deliberately out to deceive to get his way or put him in a more advantageous position and has no conscience about it.

4. Desperate for you to believe what he is saying because that's the only idea of truth he has left. I've seen this shit cross over into full blown delusions. It's ugly. Ever wake someone in the middle of a nightmare?

I can't discount 3, just because sociopaths are twisted in their ends and means, but looking at the material he's reading, I would doubt he was aware enough in your interactions to be deliberate. As a lot of people have pointed out, that shit's kind of geared towards the insecure d-bag. Sociopaths are many things, but rarely insecure in that kind of way.

You've seen the manipulations I've admitted to using in gambling (and in that context that's the tip of the iceberg). To me the information in those links isn't even manipulation 101. The few real sociopaths I've run across are predators on a whole different level. No conscience. Fully deliberate. But targeting vulnerabilities PUA fuckery doesn't even begin to brush up against.

Not any less dangerous when the manipulator's unaware, but somewhat more predictable if you know what you're looking at.

[AnnaMaeBollocks]

Yep, not even manipulation 101. Just something to make jerks feel like masterminds until they screw it up. The guys who buy this crap are the ones being manipulated.

Which is actually kind of LAIL. 

[Q. G. Pennyworth]

I try to keep in mind how easy it is for people to re-write or screw up their own memories without realizing it. The Boyfriend has an awesome story about a wedding he went to, and literally not one part of it actually happened the way he remembers.*  Also, I happen to have the kind of shitty memory where I can say something to someone and be asked immediately afterwards what I just said and have no fucking clue. So I guess maybe I'm more forgiving than I ought to be just from being fucked up myself.



*But it's an awesome story, and the groom in question has agreed that it's far more entertaining to tell it that way

[Oysters Rockefeller]

I try to keep in mind how easy it is for people to re-write or screw up their own memories without realizing it.

That's actually something really good to keep in mind. People are horribly unreliable narrators in their own lives, and the amount of fights a person would get into assuming every instance of forgetfulness was really manipulation...whew.

[Roly Poly Oly-Garch]

I try to keep in mind how easy it is for people to re-write or screw up their own memories without realizing it. The Boyfriend has an awesome story about a wedding he went to, and literally not one part of it actually happened the way he remembers.*  Also, I happen to have the kind of shitty memory where I can say something to someone and be asked immediately afterwards what I just said and have no fucking clue. So I guess maybe I'm more forgiving than I ought to be just from being fucked up myself.



*But it's an awesome story, and the groom in question has agreed that it's far more entertaining to tell it that way

When it get's resolved with a hearty laugh all the way around, that's one thing. When it gets a rage reaction because "HOW DARE YOU FUCKING CALL ME A LIAR, YOU'RE THE LIAR!" you can be sure it's something else.

[Q. G. Pennyworth]

I try to keep in mind how easy it is for people to re-write or screw up their own memories without realizing it. The Boyfriend has an awesome story about a wedding he went to, and literally not one part of it actually happened the way he remembers.*  Also, I happen to have the kind of shitty memory where I can say something to someone and be asked immediately afterwards what I just said and have no fucking clue. So I guess maybe I'm more forgiving than I ought to be just from being fucked up myself.



*But it's an awesome story, and the groom in question has agreed that it's far more entertaining to tell it that way

When it get's resolved with a hearty laugh all the way around, that's one thing. When it gets a rage reaction because "HOW DARE YOU FUCKING CALL ME A LIAR, YOU'RE THE LIAR!" you can be sure it's something else.

Have you ever been called out on a lie that you really believed wasn't one? Or had to sit there and think for a full minute and still have no ability to remember anything about the conversation that you just had? It's awful and terrifying, and I would not be surprised if some people's immediate reaction is anger and denial. If they can't come to grips with it over a longer period (as opposed to the kneejerk "DON'T CALL ME A LIAR YOU LIAR"), then it's obviously either a case of willful deception or actual mental illness.

[Roly Poly Oly-Garch]

I try to keep in mind how easy it is for people to re-write or screw up their own memories without realizing it. The Boyfriend has an awesome story about a wedding he went to, and literally not one part of it actually happened the way he remembers.*  Also, I happen to have the kind of shitty memory where I can say something to someone and be asked immediately afterwards what I just said and have no fucking clue. So I guess maybe I'm more forgiving than I ought to be just from being fucked up myself.



*But it's an awesome story, and the groom in question has agreed that it's far more entertaining to tell it that way

When it get's resolved with a hearty laugh all the way around, that's one thing. When it gets a rage reaction because "HOW DARE YOU FUCKING CALL ME A LIAR, YOU'RE THE LIAR!" you can be sure it's something else.

Have you ever been called out on a lie that you really believed wasn't one? Or had to sit there and think for a full minute and still have no ability to remember anything about the conversation that you just had? It's awful and terrifying, and I would not be surprised if some people's immediate reaction is anger and denial. If they can't come to grips with it over a longer period (as opposed to the kneejerk "DON'T CALL ME A LIAR YOU LIAR"), then it's obviously either a case of willful deception or actual mental illness.

Yeah. Thought about that after I posted my last reply.

I think the difference would be in context, which isn't real easy to lay out in a general case. Pretty obvious when you're there, though (except for the part where your head is being fucked).

[AnnaMaeBollocks]

I try to keep in mind how easy it is for people to re-write or screw up their own memories without realizing it. The Boyfriend has an awesome story about a wedding he went to, and literally not one part of it actually happened the way he remembers.*  Also, I happen to have the kind of shitty memory where I can say something to someone and be asked immediately afterwards what I just said and have no fucking clue. So I guess maybe I'm more forgiving than I ought to be just from being fucked up myself.



*But it's an awesome story, and the groom in question has agreed that it's far more entertaining to tell it that way

That's symptomatic of a disorder.
http://www.halcyon.com/jmashmun/npd/traits.html

"The most telling thing that narcissists do is contradict themselves. They will do this virtually in the same sentence, without even stopping to take a breath. It can be trivial (e.g., about what they want for lunch) or it can be serious (e.g., about whether or not they love you). When you ask them which one they mean, they'll deny ever saying the first one, though it may literally have been only seconds since they said it -- really, how could you think they'd ever have said that? You need to have your head examined! They will contradict FACTS. They will lie to you about things that you did together. They will misquote you to yourself. If you disagree with them, they'll say you're lying, making stuff up, or are crazy. "