Confused reporting on Khanadar massacre

[Cain]

As you've no doubt heard, 16 Afghan civilians were killed yesterday, including nine children.

What is not clear is whether the killer was a lone US soldier, or whether they was a group of them.

So far, the BBC is playing up the single soldier angle, which seems to be preferred by the Pentagon and ISAF:

US troops in Afghanistan have been placed on alert following the killings of 16 Afghan civilians by a US soldier.

US officials warned of reprisals after the soldier went on a rampage in villages near a base in Kandahar. Nine children were among those killed.

President Barack Obama phoned his Afghan counterpart Hamid Karzai to express condolences. But Mr Karzai has said the massacre is "unforgivable".

And Taliban militants have vowed to avenge the deaths.

US Defence Secretary Leon Panetta has said a full investigation is under way.

The soldier, believed to be a staff sergeant, is reported to have walked off his base at around 03:00 Sunday (22:30 GMT Saturday).

In the villages of Alkozai and Najeeban, about 500m (1,640 feet) from the base, he reportedly broke into three homes.

At one house in Najeeban, 11 people were found shot dead, and some of their bodies set alight. At least three of the child victims are reported to have been killed by a single shot to the head.

However, eyewitness reports seem to contradict this:

Haji Samad said 11 of his relatives were killed in one house, including his children. Pictures showed blood-splattered walls where the children were killed.

"They (Americans) poured chemicals over their dead bodies and burned them," a weeping Samad told Reuters at the scene.

"I saw that all 11 of my relatives were killed, including my children and grandchildren," said Samad, who had left the home a day earlier.

Neighbors said they awoke to crackling gunfire from American soldiers, whom they described as laughing and drunk.

"They were all drunk and shooting all over the place," said neighbor Agha Lala, who visited one of the homes where the incident took place. "Their bodies were riddled with bullets."

American soldiers.  They.  Plural. 

[Q. G. Pennyworth]

NO JAIL TIME FOR ANYONE! 

[Doktor Howl]

My Lai has become routine.

[bds]

Fucking hell.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

My dad spent a couple of years trying to train young officers on dealing with civilians, and when he came back he basically said that the majority of them were hopeless sociopaths raised on video games and with so sense of consequences. He basically said that atrocities like this were inevitable and would be widespread, and that when we bring these sociopaths back home shit is really going to get pretty because it's not like they're just going to stop.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

My dad spent a couple of years trying to train young officers on dealing with civilians, and when he came back he basically said that the majority of them were hopeless sociopaths raised on video games and with so sense of consequences. He basically said that atrocities like this were inevitable and would be widespread, and that when we bring these sociopaths back home shit is really going to get pretty because it's not like they're just going to stop.

I agree 100% with your Dad... after years in that environment with that mindset, adjusting back to 'normal' seems almost impossible. That sort of issue was one of the big reasons the Europeans invented jousting and tournaments for their knights when they weren't at war. Maybe the US just figures they'll stay at war and keep reassigning them to new places far from home.

[Doktor Howl]

My dad spent a couple of years trying to train young officers on dealing with civilians, and when he came back he basically said that the majority of them were hopeless sociopaths raised on video games and with so sense of consequences. He basically said that atrocities like this were inevitable and would be widespread, and that when we bring these sociopaths back home shit is really going to get pretty because it's not like they're just going to stop.

What I've found is that most infantrymen are not sociopaths.  In my 10 years in, I met two.

However, they are in a combat zone with no military objective¹.  This essentially means that they wander in circles until someone blows them up.  This is a recipe for atrocity.




¹  Military objectives consist of the following:
1.  Guard something.
2.  Destroy something.
3.  Grab something.

"Promote democracy" isn't on that list, as that is a political objective.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

He may have been hyperbolizing a bit. But he was there specifically doing leadership training, trying to teach them how to NOT KILL CIVILIANS.

He was fucking depressed every time I saw him. He said it was hopeless, and that they failed every training scenario he set up. It was like they were incapable of just not butchering the crap out civilians.

For my DAD to be depressed and hopeless about it is pretty astounding. Considering that he fought in Korea and Vietnam, and has been a soldier for 65+ years. His take on it is that they just don't have leadership that knows how to deal with people.

[Don Coyote]

My dad spent a couple of years trying to train young officers on dealing with civilians, and when he came back he basically said that the majority of them were hopeless sociopaths raised on video games and with so sense of consequences. He basically said that atrocities like this were inevitable and would be widespread, and that when we bring these sociopaths back home shit is really going to get pretty because it's not like they're just going to stop.

What I've found is that most infantrymen are not sociopaths.  In my 10 years in, I met two.

However, they are in a combat zone with no military objective¹.  This essentially means that they wander in circles until someone blows them up.  This is a recipe for atrocity.




¹  Military objectives consist of the following:
1.  Guard something.
2.  Destroy something.
3.  Grab something.

"Promote democracy" isn't on that list, as that is a political objective.

Sitting around getting mortared on the regular probably does some fucked things to young people.

He may have been hyperbolizing a bit. But he was there specifically doing leadership training, trying to teach them how to NOT KILL CIVILIANS.

He was fucking depressed every time I saw him. He said it was hopeless, and that they failed every training scenario he set up. It was like they were incapable of just not butchering the crap out civilians.

For my DAD to be depressed and hopeless about it is pretty astounding. Considering that he fought in Korea and Vietnam, and has been a soldier for 65+ years. His take on it is that they just don't have leadership that knows how to deal with people.

I wonder what kind of scenarios he set up.
I've done a few shoot/don't shoot drills, and invariably 50% of the other soldiers would light up civillians.

On the other had, or the same one, I almost got into an arguement with some of my friends from my last unit when those Marines pissed on those corpses.

[Cain]

A question: how does one get permission to leave a Forward Operating Base, at night, alone, and armed in Afghanistan?  That is another reason I doubt the Pentagon's version of this story.

[Don Coyote]

Great. It's a JBLM soldier from what I've heard.

[Random Probability]

I'm reading very confused accounts.  It sounds like the team hit a house about a mile away from base, then swung back and nailed two more houses closer to home.  The AP witness they're settling on to support the lone gunman theory is some kid who saw his dad get shot (read: only one person in the house was wounded).

Speculation: I was thinking it was a "Kelly's Heroes" sort of thing at first, but now it's looking more as if the powers-that-be were up to their usual hijinks.  Either way, I'm smelling bullshit.

[East Coast Hustle]

It's always a JBLM soldier. That's what happens after too much exposure to Lakewood.

[hirley0]

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[Cain]

JBLM was where the illegal "kill team" that got done for murder were from, as I recall.

From what I hear, a lot of soldiers have concerns about the leadership of that base, and the leadership there seem to have a very cavalier attitude towards PTSD and the like.

The individual soldier they are currently holding has been in the army for 11 years, but this is his first rotation in Afghanistan.  He was previously serving in Iraq before redeployment.