Notes on the current state of being (ongoing thread, comments okay)

[AFK]

Re: education.

I see where you're going, and for a large part, I agree....  But how does that explain me/us/y'all?  I've felt and experienced the appeal to authority, the bullying, the conformity, the social heirarchy.  But it didn't take.  It did suck, though.  But I kept learning things.  I liked learning things.  I also managed to avoid the drugs.  And once I got out into 10th grade, "it got better".  My desire to non-conform was accepted, if only reluctantly at first.  But it was a freedom, in some sense.  And so here I am.

Now, I know this is potentially a biased outlook: "I'm not, so no one is."  But I know that for the majority of kids, the way you present it is the way it works.  But there's a way to escape.  Maybe we should look into that, figure out how to do it.

From what I can tell, the social hierarchy stuff comes more from the student body than it does the actual school itself.  I think kids are under far more pressure to fit in with a certain clique or social strata within the kid universe than they are any appeals to authority they receive from school staff and administration. 

Kids don't give a fuck about what the principal thinks, but if those cool kids over there think I'm a hopeless geek than my life is over. 

And schools are stretched so goddamned thin these days, they can't hope to keep up with that fallout. 

[LMNO]

I don't know... I was pretty wary of the principal and the teachers.  I had fear of getting "into trouble".  Sure there a lot of bluster and bravado on the outside, but in my school there were a very few kids who honestly didn't care about the school's authority.

[The Johnny]

While that may be true to some degree, the problem is that society has grown to have that expectation of the education system.  Our society has grown to expect schools to not only teach math and science and english, but to also be a third parent.  It's the school's job to teach kids about safe sex, about drugs, about how to be a good citizen....

And while I think those are all good, what has happened is that parents have, perhaps unconsciously, shifted that part of parenting to schools.  And then when the schools fail (because they are not designed to be parents), people get upset. 

Schools need to be more empowered to do what they are supposed to do which is impart knowledge upon our children and get them ready for their next phase of learning whether it is college or taking up a trade.  Parents need to be more empowered to be the parents.

Well, i see it more as opportunistic that schools strive to teach ideology and "values" in the wake of dead-beat parents... things like "being a good citizen" are ultimately so subjective that when it is imparted by any institution or person its gonna have a self-serving-usefullness in the message ("to be a good citizen is to obey the laws..." etc)

Sure, teaching how sex and drugs work is fine, because it gives knowledge about how something works and leaving the ultimate decision to them... its very different to preach about sexual abstinence than to teach a person how condoms work or how reproduction works.

[AFK]

I don't know... I was pretty wary of the principal and the teachers.  I had fear of getting "into trouble".  Sure there a lot of bluster and bravado on the outside, but in my school there were a very few kids who honestly didn't care about the school's authority.

Maybe, but I still think based on my experiences working in schools, on a comparative basis, there is more pressure to conform to peers then there is to authority. 

[Freeky]

3.  Encourage conformity.  Not in some egalitarian "we are all equal" sense, but to make people predictable.

When the above methods prove unworkable on a child, and that seems to be about 10-15% of the student body, why then we come to the problem of drugs in our schools.  For example, America consumes 90% of the world's Ritalin, and almost all of it is administered to male children between 6 and 12.  Keeps the little bastards quiet, and monkeys with their cognition.

When I was a little kid, it was somehow cool to be on drugs.  So not only do you have a population who is widely conformist, but you have the ones that doesn't work on actively trying to drug themselves.

[AFK]

While that may be true to some degree, the problem is that society has grown to have that expectation of the education system.  Our society has grown to expect schools to not only teach math and science and english, but to also be a third parent.  It's the school's job to teach kids about safe sex, about drugs, about how to be a good citizen....

And while I think those are all good, what has happened is that parents have, perhaps unconsciously, shifted that part of parenting to schools.  And then when the schools fail (because they are not designed to be parents), people get upset. 

Schools need to be more empowered to do what they are supposed to do which is impart knowledge upon our children and get them ready for their next phase of learning whether it is college or taking up a trade.  Parents need to be more empowered to be the parents.

Well, i see it more as opportunistic that schools strive to teach ideology and "values" in the wake of dead-beat parents... things like "being a good citizen" are ultimately so subjective that when it is imparted by any institution or person its gonna have a self-serving-usefullness in the message ("to be a good citizen is to obey the laws..." etc)

Sure, teaching how sex and drugs work is fine, because it gives knowledge about how something works and leaving the ultimate decision to them... its very different to preach about sexual abstinence than to teach a person how condoms work or how reproduction works.

For sure, schools have an interest in imparting ideas about citizenship that will help keep the peace in the schools.  I think ultimately it isn't out of any nefarious intent to create societal robots but more out of, "holy fuck I gotta keep these kids in line so they pass the damned tests and i don't get my funding cut."  School administrations are under incredible pressure to perform.  And they're getting it from all directions.  State government, local government, tax payers, parents, grand-parents, local media, etc., etc.,  They'll do what they need to do to keep that shit off their backs. 

The federal government created that monster.  Namely the asshats who constructed NCLB.  The People continue to support that monster by NOT demanding its death. 

[LMNO]

I don't know... I was pretty wary of the principal and the teachers.  I had fear of getting "into trouble".  Sure there a lot of bluster and bravado on the outside, but in my school there were a very few kids who honestly didn't care about the school's authority.

Maybe, but I still think based on my experiences working in schools, on a comparative basis, there is more pressure to conform to peers then there is to authority. 

Well sure -- You conform to peers, but you obey authority.

[AFK]

I don't know... I was pretty wary of the principal and the teachers.  I had fear of getting "into trouble".  Sure there a lot of bluster and bravado on the outside, but in my school there were a very few kids who honestly didn't care about the school's authority.

Maybe, but I still think based on my experiences working in schools, on a comparative basis, there is more pressure to conform to peers then there is to authority. 

Well sure -- You conform to peers, but you obey authority.

But I think schools, at least in some cases, are approaching that from a strength-based perspective.  That is, to talk about citizenship and how it benefits the community.  In other words, framing it so that "good behavior" isn't just about making the teacher and principal happy, but about creating an environment that is conducive to education. 

So I think one thing we as taxpayers and citizens can do is to encourage more of that.  Does your local school system have some kind of citizenship statement in their school policy?  If not they should.  It shouldn't be some neanderthal zero-tolerance, behave or GTFO policy.  It should be, "This is how we make our school work" kind of statement.  So it's about the kids investing in their community, not becoming a blank robot. 

[The Johnny]

For sure, schools have an interest in imparting ideas about citizenship that will help keep the peace in the schools.  I think ultimately it isn't out of any nefarious intent to create societal robots but more out of, "holy fuck I gotta keep these kids in line so they pass the damned tests and i don't get my funding cut."  School administrations are under incredible pressure to perform.  And they're getting it from all directions.  State government, local government, tax payers, parents, grand-parents, local media, etc., etc.,  They'll do what they need to do to keep that shit off their backs. 

The federal government created that monster.  Namely the asshats who constructed NCLB.  The People continue to support that monster by NOT demanding its death.

What i find hilarious is the same tendencies happening here and there... its like if governments read a book on bio-politics and created policies and institutional behaviours accordingly. Its just so cliché but ultimately real how every aspect of civilian life is attempted to be controled to ensure a functionally healthy sizeable work force, the vector being schools.

Schools not only have to teach values, they have to run anti-drug programs, anti-teen pregnancy programs, vaccinations programs, family integration seminars alongside all the academic stuff (some stuff might not apply there, but it does for sure over here)

[AFK]

Nope, all of that stuff is here too.  I think most schools would be happy to NOT have to do that stuff.  It takes staff time and resources that could be better spent focusing on the fundamentals of education.  But at this point society expects schools to serve those functions.  I don't see it changing anytime soon.  Society needs to have its expectations around education reframed and reworked. 

[Doktor Howl]

Re: education.

I see where you're going, and for a large part, I agree....  But how does that explain me/us/y'all?  I've felt and experienced the appeal to authority, the bullying, the conformity, the social heirarchy.  But it didn't take.  It did suck, though.  But I kept learning things.  I liked learning things.  I also managed to avoid the drugs. 

The system can certainly survive a few rogues slipping through.  For the majority, though, ritalin, etc, is pushed successfully on the parents, because the parents get a nice quiet kid.  Except when they have convulsions as a side effect, of course.

This is TROOF.  It's hard for me to think outside the system when I've got both feet in the system.

Yep.  I'd say the trick is to learn how to glean whatever benefits you can from the system without becoming totally absorbed by it.

[Doktor Howl]

Nope, all of that stuff is here too.  I think most schools would be happy to NOT have to do that stuff.  It takes staff time and resources that could be better spent focusing on the fundamentals of education.  But at this point society expects schools to serve those functions.  I don't see it changing anytime soon.  Society needs to have its expectations around education reframed and reworked.

I'm going to argue that.  I think most teachers would be happy to not have that stuff.

School systems, on the other hand, are more concerned with standardized testing and low/no discipline incidents.

[Doktor Howl]

I don't know... I was pretty wary of the principal and the teachers.  I had fear of getting "into trouble".  Sure there a lot of bluster and bravado on the outside, but in my school there were a very few kids who honestly didn't care about the school's authority.

Maybe, but I still think based on my experiences working in schools, on a comparative basis, there is more pressure to conform to peers then there is to authority.

In my experience as an involved parent, I see a great deal of imposed authority.  Dress codes that have nothing to do with "decency", "Respect" rules that allow a teacher to punish someone who points out an error in the lesson, etc.

[Doktor Howl]

Different contexts, different applications; same objective.

Precisely.

And just whose values are they inculcating?

From what i can see, its the modern State's rationalization (im not sure if it translates this way) process, which aims at the re-integration of whomever is a deviant (excluded or radicals); but the thing is, they want the re-integration to be under their terms of the established order which ultimately favours the ruling classes. Its essentialy on the conservative side of things. It's nostalgic, self-centered and preachy.

In other words, they are trying to create a jello-mold linked to a mythical 1950s (in America, anyway), in which everyone is "normal" and well-behaved.

Thing is, the actual product of that system was the highest rate of juvenile delinquency in US history, and the highest number of teen pregnancies.

I expect the results will be the same in Mexico, as the driving factors are primate politics, not local cultural norms.

[Doktor Howl]

Fact is, Johnny is right...Despite the differences in approach, the end result is the same:  Children as a product, education (read; indoctrination) as a feature of said product.