Robert Bly - The Mythopoetic Men's Movement

[Elder Iptuous]

the perfect cure for "society won't let me be manly enough"...
systemic collapse and regression to a shitty past that we had one time clawed our way out of.

Fuck that.  Let Bly's fuckers move to the Congo if that's their problem.  They will soon learn about "manliness".  I want painless dentistry more than I want to have my manhood validated.  I already know WHAT I am.  If they don't, that's their fucking problem.

exactly.
we should enjoy being pansies while we can.

Absolutely.

If you insist on "civilized" equal to being a pansy.

I don't.  Pretty sure you don't, either.  Or you wouldn't be here, you'd be on some teabagger Illinois board, endlessly shouting how much you hate Obama and Mexicans.

yeah. i was just being flip.
hell, the perfect end goal is a world of plenty and leisure, right? how macho will we be at that point?  We'll be like the Eloi or the Brave Londoners of 632 A.F. (hopefully a little more empathetic of our fellows than the former, i guess)

but i don't see that as likely.  we're at a high water mark now.

Burns, i didn't mean to dismiss the concern altogether... it is an issue in my opinion.  i've often thought of what rites of passage would have done me well growing up, and how to see that i can arrange for my sons to benefit from them.

i was just pointing out that it's probably a luxurious problem to face, and we may not have to worry about it in a generation or two (maybe less) due to a harsher reality forcing us into a continuous test of manhood.
i think i was being rudely flip, and apologize for that.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Just before my son went off to the Marines, a few other veterans and I got him FUCKED UP, as was done to me and my father and so on.

The military itself RELIES on tradition, ritual, and ceremony.  I think that's why it's so effective in this regard.

However, I'm gonna restate my earlier assertion that this should never be mandatory in any way, as forcing this sort of shit on people is counterproductive as hell, and morally repugnant.  You can't force people to grow up.

[kiss my axe]

The Mythopoetic Men's Movement was probably a fancy version of a deer lease, anyway. A chance for the guys to get away from their wives and bosses and get shitfaced.

At least I hope so, because the thought of an overweight cubicle drone with a sock tan hopping around and banging a drum SOBER is truly disturbing.

[Elder Iptuous]

oh jesus, yeah. 

oh hey.  just thought i'd mention the bullet ant mittens of the Satere-Mawe.
there's not enough opportunity to mention those things.

most of the rites of passage seem to be about overcoming fear and/or pain.
i don't know that anybody has said as such...

[Don Coyote]

The Mythopoetic Men's Movement was probably a fancy version of a deer lease, anyway. A chance for the guys to get away from their wives and bosses and get shitfaced.

At least I hope so, because the thought of an overweight cubicle drone with a sock tan hopping around and banging a drum SOBER is truly disturbing.

[Juana]

the perfect cure for "society won't let me be manly enough"...
systemic collapse and regression to a shitty past that we had one time clawed our way out of.

Fuck that.  Let Bly's fuckers move to the Congo if that's their problem.  They will soon learn about "manliness".  I want painless dentistry more than I want to have my manhood validated.  I already know WHAT I am.  If they don't, that's their fucking problem.

That's it.  That's what I think is important.  I'm not really concerned with rituals, but what does concern me is seeing my fellow men walk about the world with their tail between their legs.  There just seems to be such an absence of leadership, strength and courage--albeit the problems they face are nothing more than 'first world' issues.

I'm sorry, but a lot of this smells like the "men's rights" movement. And, uh, fuck that. "Oh noes! Male men are not being required to stick to traditional gender roles for 'men'! This is some how damaging to my own manliness!"
Also:

There just seems to be such an absence of leadership, strength and courage....

What? Is this explicitly attached to "man" for you?

[Bu☆ns]

the perfect cure for "society won't let me be manly enough"...
systemic collapse and regression to a shitty past that we had one time clawed our way out of.

Fuck that.  Let Bly's fuckers move to the Congo if that's their problem.  They will soon learn about "manliness".  I want painless dentistry more than I want to have my manhood validated.  I already know WHAT I am.  If they don't, that's their fucking problem.

exactly.
we should enjoy being pansies while we can.

Absolutely.

If you insist on "civilized" equal to being a pansy.

I don't.  Pretty sure you don't, either.  Or you wouldn't be here, you'd be on some teabagger Illinois board, endlessly shouting how much you hate Obama and Mexicans.

yeah. i was just being flip.
hell, the perfect end goal is a world of plenty and leisure, right? how macho will we be at that point?  We'll be like the Eloi or the Brave Londoners of 632 A.F. (hopefully a little more empathetic of our fellows than the former, i guess)

but i don't see that as likely.  we're at a high water mark now.

Burns, i didn't mean to dismiss the concern altogether... it is an issue in my opinion.  i've often thought of what rites of passage would have done me well growing up, and how to see that i can arrange for my sons to benefit from them.

i was just pointing out that it's probably a luxurious problem to face, and we may not have to worry about it in a generation or two (maybe less) due to a harsher reality forcing us into a continuous test of manhood.
i think i was being rudely flip, and apologize for that.

I don't feel an apology is necessary.  It's interesting to think about who would stand in the face of a harsher reality and to consider what inner qualities are necessary for a man (or woman for that matter) in that kind of event.

[Bu☆ns]

The Mythopoetic Men's Movement was probably a fancy version of a deer lease, anyway. A chance for the guys to get away from their wives and bosses and get shitfaced.

At least I hope so, because the thought of an overweight cubicle drone with a sock tan hopping around and banging a drum SOBER is truly disturbing.

While the methods used aren't exactly something I think is very effective, I think that it's a good start.  Hell, guys probably should get away from their wives from time to time for both his and her benefit. 

[Luna]

The Mythopoetic Men's Movement was probably a fancy version of a deer lease, anyway. A chance for the guys to get away from their wives and bosses and get shitfaced.

At least I hope so, because the thought of an overweight cubicle drone with a sock tan hopping around and banging a drum SOBER is truly disturbing.

While the methods used aren't exactly something I think is very effective, I think that it's a good start.  Hell, guys probably should get away from their wives from time to time for both his and her benefit.

There is, I think, a subtle difference between, "hey, honey, the guys and I are going to go fishing for the weekend" and "I MUST BE A MAN AND GET AWAY FROM YOUR ESTROGEN POISON!"

[kiss my axe]

The Mythopoetic Men's Movement was probably a fancy version of a deer lease, anyway. A chance for the guys to get away from their wives and bosses and get shitfaced.

At least I hope so, because the thought of an overweight cubicle drone with a sock tan hopping around and banging a drum SOBER is truly disturbing.

While the methods used aren't exactly something I think is very effective, I think that it's a good start.  Hell, guys probably should get away from their wives from time to time for both his and her benefit.

Totally agree.

There is, I think, a subtle difference between, "hey, honey, the guys and I are going to go fishing for the weekend" and "I MUST BE A MAN AND GET AWAY FROM YOUR ESTROGEN POISON!"

I'd think it would be a happy time when people who say things like "I MUST BE A MAN AND GET AWAY FROM YOUR ESTROGEN POISON!" go away for the weekend. And maybe get eaten by bears. 

[Bu☆ns]

the perfect cure for "society won't let me be manly enough"...
systemic collapse and regression to a shitty past that we had one time clawed our way out of.

Fuck that.  Let Bly's fuckers move to the Congo if that's their problem.  They will soon learn about "manliness".  I want painless dentistry more than I want to have my manhood validated.  I already know WHAT I am.  If they don't, that's their fucking problem.

That's it.  That's what I think is important.  I'm not really concerned with rituals, but what does concern me is seeing my fellow men walk about the world with their tail between their legs.  There just seems to be such an absence of leadership, strength and courage--albeit the problems they face are nothing more than 'first world' issues.

I'm sorry, but a lot of this smells like the "men's rights" movement. And, uh, fuck that. "Oh noes! Male men are not being required to stick to traditional gender roles for 'men'! This is some how damaging to my own manliness!"

I thought the Mythopoetic mens movement was the "men's rights" movement.  I think Roger stated it best when he said, "I already know WHAT I am.  If they don't, that's their fucking problem," earlier ITT.

Honestly, I like the traditional gender role associated with manhood and manliness.  It's useful to me and I appreciate the qualities inherent in it.  Do I think that ALL males should be forced to adopt it? Of course not.  I appreciate guys who are more feminine for reasons I'd rather not go into here. 

However, exploring what it means to take on this role in society today is really interesting to me.  What I hope to explore ITT and elsewhere is the relationship of this Man archetype to the modern ideas and roles of today.  The whole dynamic changes in relation to feminism, gender flexibility, women roles, and so on. Through all of this, I'm looking toward seeking my own definition.

Also:

There just seems to be such an absence of leadership, strength and courage....

What? Is this explicitly attached to "man" for you?

C'mon now...Just because I attribute these qualities to 'man' doesn't mean I exclude them from 'women' or 'transgender.'  In pursuit of my own definition, I most certainly feel that these are necessary qualities among many others. 

[Bu☆ns]

The Mythopoetic Men's Movement was probably a fancy version of a deer lease, anyway. A chance for the guys to get away from their wives and bosses and get shitfaced.

At least I hope so, because the thought of an overweight cubicle drone with a sock tan hopping around and banging a drum SOBER is truly disturbing.

While the methods used aren't exactly something I think is very effective, I think that it's a good start.  Hell, guys probably should get away from their wives from time to time for both his and her benefit.

There is, I think, a subtle difference between, "hey, honey, the guys and I are going to go fishing for the weekend" and "I MUST BE A MAN AND GET AWAY FROM YOUR ESTROGEN POISON!"

Absolutely...and I think this is precisely the stigma attached to the masculine role today.  It's one thing to perhaps get up on stage and joke about the differences between men an women and another to take the jokes as absolute truth.

Another one that comes to mind is the whole, "Real men don't cry or show emotion" thing.  I mean this shit was beaten into my head for as far back as I can remember.  Even the Maassi teens, while they're getting their foreskin cut off have to not show any form of emotion or they fail the test. It's pretty weird.

[Luna]

Absolutely...and I think this is precisely the stigma attached to the masculine role today.  It's one thing to perhaps get up on stage and joke about the differences between men an women and another to take the jokes as absolute truth.

Another one that comes to mind is the whole, "Real men don't cry or show emotion" thing.  I mean this shit was beaten into my head for as far back as I can remember.  Even the Maassi teens, while they're getting their foreskin cut off have to not show any form of emotion or they fail the test. It's pretty weird.

Want weird?  A man who, on the day he gets married, decides that (despite the fact that she works as many hours as he does) he never has to cook, do laundry, clean, or wash a fucking dish again.

[Pope Pixie Pickle]

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Men's_rights_movement

I think this MRA is different to the one mentioned by Garbo. They froth some egregious shit sometimes, and are usually trying to hang onto their straight white male privilege. Usually misogynists of the highest order, and make some radical feminists look like fluffy kittens.

[Bu☆ns]

Absolutely...and I think this is precisely the stigma attached to the masculine role today.  It's one thing to perhaps get up on stage and joke about the differences between men an women and another to take the jokes as absolute truth.

Another one that comes to mind is the whole, "Real men don't cry or show emotion" thing.  I mean this shit was beaten into my head for as far back as I can remember.  Even the Maassi teens, while they're getting their foreskin cut off have to not show any form of emotion or they fail the test. It's pretty weird.

Want weird?  A man who, on the day he gets married, decides that (despite the fact that she works as many hours as he does) he never has to cook, do laundry, clean, or wash a fucking dish again.

Oh no!, Luna!

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Men's_rights_movement

I think this MRA is different to the one mentioned by Garbo. They froth some egregious shit sometimes, and are usually trying to hang onto their straight white male privilege. Usually misogynists of the highest order, and make some radical feminists look like fluffy kittens.

Yeeeeah...extremism...rather sick

Thanks for clarifying that, Pixie!