Finding Balance

[Epimetheus]

Congrats, man, I hope that all works out and you're having a blast on the daily.

Disagree, but it's only a slight distinction. You can't see reality the way it is but, if you accept this, then it becomes a matter of choosing to see it however suits. Yeah, sure, Don Quixote and the barstool applies but there's a lot of wiggle room in there. Lot of people seem to be really down about "the way things are" and what they're really talking about is their impression or opinion of the way things are.

Okay, I don't have a problem with changing my phrasing to: it's just my impression. But I just want to make it clear, then, that saying that it's actually boring is just a personal impression. Basically, I disagree with Kai's notion that enjoying something that seems boring is some kind of self-delusion.

[P3nT4gR4m]

Congrats, man, I hope that all works out and you're having a blast on the daily.

Disagree, but it's only a slight distinction. You can't see reality the way it is but, if you accept this, then it becomes a matter of choosing to see it however suits. Yeah, sure, Don Quixote and the barstool applies but there's a lot of wiggle room in there. Lot of people seem to be really down about "the way things are" and what they're really talking about is their impression or opinion of the way things are.

Okay, I don't have a problem with changing my phrasing to: it's just my impression. But I just want to make it clear, then, that saying that it's actually boring is just a personal impression. Basically, I disagree with Kai's notion that enjoying something that seems boring is some kind of self-delusion.

Yeah, you got me there. I know this and sometimes I can even turn it around and get into what I'm doing but more and more lately I just can't be arsed.

[Anna Mae Bollocks]

That's a really good point. I was trying to think about the rare few who have jobs doing what they love-- and you nailed it. Even when I have an entire day to write, mix, or play music- which are things I can lose myself in for hours- it isn't self-sustainable. I have to walk away at a certain point. Even passions have their limits.

It's not sustainable. Even if you are able to do it and not burn out, that's probably because you have an obsession. And obsessions generally lead to worse things than burn out; I can recover from burn out with some rest, but not so easily from the inevitable psychological addiction within extended obsession.

Wait, are you guys talking about something more than just simple exhaustion? I can understand getting worn out from doing a lot of what you love, just because any activity consumes energy, but as far as getting to a point where you don't want to do it any more (temporarily) - not sure I'm with you on that.
Does that mean I'm obsessed?

More than simple exhaustion, yes. If you've ever experienced burnout, you get the general idea. The human mind seeks novelty. Doing the same things over and over, no matter how much your initial passion, will throw a wrench in the system until it breaks, either in the form of burnout, or in the form of obsession. In the latter case, that novelty seeking reward gets switched to a circular feedback rewarding the obsession. Ever heard Yudowsky talk about having your mind reprogrammed so that you like to do something that would otherwise bore you? That's pretty much it, except without the transhumanist tech.

Or, conversely, I could be full of it.

Been thinking about this. Is obsession always necessarily a bad thing?
I read a biography of Jimi Hendrix once. That guy was obsessed, that's how he got so good. He practiced nonstop. There's stories that he slept with his guitar in his paratrooper days. Footage I've seen shows him smiling a lot, when he wasn't in rapt concentration. That's not a bad way to live.

Also: Missed Coyote's post earlier. Yep - DING DING DING. 

[Epimetheus]

But AMB, we all know that your obsession with your Fairies is unhealthy. Those things are vicious and nasty, and do no good for society. You need to quit this thing, AMB. We're all here with you.

[Anna Mae Bollocks]

Oh no, the Fairies are for you guys. 
I just read cards: "Lilies + Mice, STD's! HAR HAR!"

[Verbal Mike]

Been thinking about this. Is obsession always necessarily a bad thing?
I read a biography of Jimi Hendrix once. That guy was obsessed, that's how he got so good. He practiced nonstop. There's stories that he slept with his guitar in his paratrooper days. Footage I've seen shows him smiling a lot, when he wasn't in rapt concentration. That's not a bad way to live.

Umm, didn't that guy OD and die young?

[ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞]

Been thinking about this. Is obsession always necessarily a bad thing?
I read a biography of Jimi Hendrix once. That guy was obsessed, that's how he got so good. He practiced nonstop. There's stories that he slept with his guitar in his paratrooper days. Footage I've seen shows him smiling a lot, when he wasn't in rapt concentration. That's not a bad way to live.

Umm, didn't that guy OD and die young?

Stunning proof that Jimi Hendrix's obsession with his guitar was a terrible thing and eventually killed him.

[ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞]

That's a really good point. I was trying to think about the rare few who have jobs doing what they love-- and you nailed it. Even when I have an entire day to write, mix, or play music- which are things I can lose myself in for hours- it isn't self-sustainable. I have to walk away at a certain point. Even passions have their limits.

It's not sustainable. Even if you are able to do it and not burn out, that's probably because you have an obsession. And obsessions generally lead to worse things than burn out; I can recover from burn out with some rest, but not so easily from the inevitable psychological addiction within extended obsession.

Wait, are you guys talking about something more than just simple exhaustion? I can understand getting worn out from doing a lot of what you love, just because any activity consumes energy, but as far as getting to a point where you don't want to do it any more (temporarily) - not sure I'm with you on that.
Does that mean I'm obsessed?

More than simple exhaustion, yes. If you've ever experienced burnout, you get the general idea. The human mind seeks novelty. Doing the same things over and over, no matter how much your initial passion, will throw a wrench in the system until it breaks, either in the form of burnout, or in the form of obsession. In the latter case, that novelty seeking reward gets switched to a circular feedback rewarding the obsession. Ever heard Yudowsky talk about having your mind reprogrammed so that you like to do something that would otherwise bore you? That's pretty much it, except without the transhumanist tech.

Or, conversely, I could be full of it.

Been thinking about this. Is obsession always necessarily a bad thing?
I read a biography of Jimi Hendrix once. That guy was obsessed, that's how he got so good. He practiced nonstop. There's stories that he slept with his guitar in his paratrooper days. Footage I've seen shows him smiling a lot, when he wasn't in rapt concentration. That's not a bad way to live.

I don't think it is, but the word "obsession" has strong negative connotations that people will get hung up on.

"Passion" is closer to the idea of a positive obsession, I think.

[ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞]

I don't buy into that "sex and cash" theory AT ALL. I know too many people who make a living doing what they love; dichotomizing it is simplistic binary bullshit.

I don't know, especially these days, a lot of people kind of have to accept shitty jobs or not eat. I don't think it needs to be so black and white, but there's something to it. You have to pay the bills, but you shouldn't give up on what you're passionate about. Or do we have different interpretations?

The main credible caution that I've heard about doing what you're passionate about for money wasn't the "Sex and Cash" idea, it's an idea I read in a psychology textbook. Yes, I know, but still a bit more credible than a cartoonist's personal experience.

Basically, if you already do something for an intrinsic purpose and feel rewarded merely by doing it, what studies have found is that people have a tendency to feel that the external reward of money replaces the enjoyment they got out of just doing it. But clearly this isn't the case in a number of situations, as you've pointed out Nigel, and of course psychologists don't know really know why that seems to effect some people and not others.

I can try and dig that study up for greater scrutiny if anyone's interested.

[Anna Mae Bollocks]

Been thinking about this. Is obsession always necessarily a bad thing?
I read a biography of Jimi Hendrix once. That guy was obsessed, that's how he got so good. He practiced nonstop. There's stories that he slept with his guitar in his paratrooper days. Footage I've seen shows him smiling a lot, when he wasn't in rapt concentration. That's not a bad way to live.

Umm, didn't that guy OD and die young?

Stunning proof that Jimi Hendrix's obsession with his guitar was a terrible thing and eventually killed him.

I don't think it is, but the word "obsession" has strong negative connotations that people will get hung up on.

"Passion" is closer to the idea of a positive obsession, I think.

Good point.

I'm wondering where the line is, though. Jimi could be said to have a passion because he succeeded, but he was the same person when he was younger and broke. I imagine there were people saying at some point that he was no good for anything, all he wanted to do was play guitar, couldn't hold a regular job, etc. Like a person is considered to have a pathology until they make a shit-ton of money at it, no matter how happy they are doing it.

And yes, if you could dig up the study, it would be awesome.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I don't buy into that "sex and cash" theory AT ALL. I know too many people who make a living doing what they love; dichotomizing it is simplistic binary bullshit.

My last career change, I asked myself, what do I love doing so much that I think about it all the time and have been doing it in my spare time whenever I have a chance for years? The answer was, glass. So I spent the next ten years immersed in glass. Everything was about glass, not 40 hours a week, but probably over 90 hours a week. When the market tanked and I started to burn out (not on the glass, but on the discouragement) I realized I needed to do something else, at first I was going to go to school for chemistry, because so much of what I know about glass is chemistry and I could maybe get a job as a batch chemist. But then I asked myself, what do I geek out about in my spare time? What do I fucking love so much that I read about it even though it has minimal practical application in my life? What's the thing that my friends think I'm fucking weird for being so into? Oh goddamn right, irrational human behavior and how it impacts the spread of dysfunction and disease!

And you disgusting freaks will never, ever stop doing shit that is completely contrary to your own best interests, so there will ALWAYS be new and novel horrible things to try to wrap my head around. I've never been so excited about anything in my life, except maybe really good sushi.

I like this. A lot.

And I know some people who just do art, or music, or whatever. No day job waiting tables. Nigel has the correct motorcycle AGAIN.

Just because not everyone has found a way to do it doesn't mean it's impossible.

Thanks! I also think there is lots of gray area... it's not simply a matter of either you turn your passion into your career or you work a job you hate. There are so many options in between. One of the most phenomenal artists I know is also passionate about chemistry. I know an amazing poet who just got his MSW because he wants to provide counseling for alienated indigenous people. Many people have this binary idea, this notion that great people are passionate only about one thing; in my experience, great people are passionate about everything. They may become known for only one thing, because that is the one passion that had great results. So, my opinion is that if you can't or won't make your art into your career, then find something else you also love, and do that. Maintain your passions, and don't make excuses for letting them go. Most importantly, do what you feel passionate about, and be passionate in everything you do.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I don't buy into that "sex and cash" theory AT ALL. I know too many people who make a living doing what they love; dichotomizing it is simplistic binary bullshit.

I don't know, especially these days, a lot of people kind of have to accept shitty jobs or not eat. I don't think it needs to be so black and white, but there's something to it. You have to pay the bills, but you shouldn't give up on what you're passionate about. Or do we have different interpretations?

The main credible caution that I've heard about doing what you're passionate about for money wasn't the "Sex and Cash" idea, it's an idea I read in a psychology textbook. Yes, I know, but still a bit more credible than a cartoonist's personal experience.

Basically, if you already do something for an intrinsic purpose and feel rewarded merely by doing it, what studies have found is that people have a tendency to feel that the external reward of money replaces the enjoyment they got out of just doing it. But clearly this isn't the case in a number of situations, as you've pointed out Nigel, and of course psychologists don't know really know why that seems to effect some people and not others.

I can try and dig that study up for greater scrutiny if anyone's interested.

People very, very often have to take work they hate in order to live, but that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about the "sex or cash" dichotomizing; work is not inherently binary, and in my opinion, viewing it in such overly simplified black and white terms is juvenile, in the sense of being undeveloped. Our society has created an incredibly dysfunctional, alienating work experience for the majority of people, but that is not the universal definition of work, nor even a particularly useful one.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I am familiar with the idea that monetizing something one does for enjoyment can strip the doer of their enjoyment, but from a sociological perspective the opposite seems to be true. When people are alienated from their work, it has an impact on their enjoyment of life and even their connection to their community.

[Anna Mae Bollocks]

I don't buy into that "sex and cash" theory AT ALL. I know too many people who make a living doing what they love; dichotomizing it is simplistic binary bullshit.

My last career change, I asked myself, what do I love doing so much that I think about it all the time and have been doing it in my spare time whenever I have a chance for years? The answer was, glass. So I spent the next ten years immersed in glass. Everything was about glass, not 40 hours a week, but probably over 90 hours a week. When the market tanked and I started to burn out (not on the glass, but on the discouragement) I realized I needed to do something else, at first I was going to go to school for chemistry, because so much of what I know about glass is chemistry and I could maybe get a job as a batch chemist. But then I asked myself, what do I geek out about in my spare time? What do I fucking love so much that I read about it even though it has minimal practical application in my life? What's the thing that my friends think I'm fucking weird for being so into? Oh goddamn right, irrational human behavior and how it impacts the spread of dysfunction and disease!

And you disgusting freaks will never, ever stop doing shit that is completely contrary to your own best interests, so there will ALWAYS be new and novel horrible things to try to wrap my head around. I've never been so excited about anything in my life, except maybe really good sushi.

I like this. A lot.

And I know some people who just do art, or music, or whatever. No day job waiting tables. Nigel has the correct motorcycle AGAIN.

Just because not everyone has found a way to do it doesn't mean it's impossible.

Thanks! I also think there is lots of gray area... it's not simply a matter of either you turn your passion into your career or you work a job you hate. There are so many options in between. One of the most phenomenal artists I know is also passionate about chemistry. I know an amazing poet who just got his MSW because he wants to provide counseling for alienated indigenous people. Many people have this binary idea, this notion that great people are passionate only about one thing; in my experience, great people are passionate about everything. They may become known for only one thing, because that is the one passion that had great results. So, my opinion is that if you can't or won't make your art into your career, then find something else you also love, and do that. Maintain your passions, and don't make excuses for letting them go. Most importantly, do what you feel passionate about, and be passionate in everything you do.

Of course! The idea that people can only have one passion is like saying they can only love one person, ever.

[BabylonHoruv]

Been thinking about this. Is obsession always necessarily a bad thing?
I read a biography of Jimi Hendrix once. That guy was obsessed, that's how he got so good. He practiced nonstop. There's stories that he slept with his guitar in his paratrooper days. Footage I've seen shows him smiling a lot, when he wasn't in rapt concentration. That's not a bad way to live.

Umm, didn't that guy OD and die young?

Yep, on sleeping pills that he took to go to sleep.  Not as a suicide or even as an accident with recreational drugs.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/september/18/newsid_3528000/3528692.stm

Not really related to his passion and his approach to guitar playing.