A curiosity about the South, for people who live here

[Golden Applesauce]

Innocent until proven guilty. Or is that only when you find it personally convenient?

[Verbal Mike]

On the racism thing, I don't have any experience or data regarding the US, but my general impression is that racism is rampant everywhere, and basically most people everywhere are racists, on some level. But there are cultural differences which make a huge difference – in more progressive/enlightened/anti-racist/?? cultures it's less acceptable to openly display racism, and thus far less likely for someone to be actively discriminated against due to everyone's racism. This doesn't mean the people are less racist, they're just more aware of the fact that that part of them is reprehensible and mustn't be shown. Even the most racism-aware and progressive groups in the most racism-aware countries are mostly composed of racists, there's just a group dynamic that keeps the racism in check. People who self-reflect and self-adjust well, especially in that kind of environment, can slowly work on actually eliminating their racist thoughts and perceptions, but I'm willing to guess that while that kind of person is a majority on this board, it's a tiny minority in the world and in any given region. Most people repress their racism without ever shedding much of it.

Because of all this, I don't think it makes any sense to speak of someone population being more or less racist on the individual level. It's more like there are more racism-friendly/unaware and racism-unfriendly/aware cultures.

Unlike ECH (and perhaps since I actually belong to an ethnic group that has been an oppressed minority for most of history) I'm pretty sure I prefer the latter kind of culture, where people don't feel it's okay to shit on me because I'm Jewish and I don't have to worry too much about being murdered for no reason. But then, I'm personally so paranoid and distrustful that I'll suspect a lot of people of hating me no matter what kind of culture I'm surrounded by, so it makes no difference if people secretly hate me. ymmv, and obviously being Jewish is not that similar to being Black anymore.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

The Confederate flag also is not inherently synonymous with racism or slavery. It can also express a general distrust of authority, a willingness to rebel against what one sees as overbearing government, or a desire to decorate one's orange '69 Charger and escape the grasp of clumsy law enforcement.

Exactly! Similarly, the KKK was a social club where guys could go to get away from their wives. They raised money for charity and did volunteer work and stuff, but all anyone associates with pointy white hoods is a relatively small number of lynchings allegedly carried out by rotten eggs who also happened to be members. Allegedly, because compared to the numbers of murders the KKK was accused of, almost nobody was ever convicted of homicide.

For the same reasons the guys who did this to Emmet Till weren't convicted.



I had no idea you were like that. Pardon me while I go puke my lungs out. 

That is a related but separate conversation. There IS rampant racism and violence and injustice in the South, but like with schoolyard bullying, we need the dialogue to go deeper than "the bullies are bad people" and open it up to "what are the formative forces behind the desire to bully?"

There can't and won't be resolution there until both sides of the dialogue are heard. They DON'T cancel each other out; we can, and must, acknowledge both for any real progress to be made.

Posting emotionally loaded images in order to shut down the conversation is not productive; it's the forum equivalent to waving a sign with a dead baby on it to shut down productive dialogue about abortion.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

On the racism thing, I don't have any experience or data regarding the US, but my general impression is that racism is rampant everywhere, and basically most people everywhere are racists, on some level. But there are cultural differences which make a huge difference – in more progressive/enlightened/anti-racist/?? cultures it's less acceptable to openly display racism, and thus far less likely for someone to be actively discriminated against due to everyone's racism. This doesn't mean the people are less racist, they're just more aware of the fact that that part of them is reprehensible and mustn't be shown. Even the most racism-aware and progressive groups in the most racism-aware countries are mostly composed of racists, there's just a group dynamic that keeps the racism in check. People who self-reflect and self-adjust well, especially in that kind of environment, can slowly work on actually eliminating their racist thoughts and perceptions, but I'm willing to guess that while that kind of person is a majority on this board, it's a tiny minority in the world and in any given region. Most people repress their racism without ever shedding much of it.

Because of all this, I don't think it makes any sense to speak of someone population being more or less racist on the individual level. It's more like there are more racism-friendly/unaware and racism-unfriendly/aware cultures.

Unlike ECH (and perhaps since I actually belong to an ethnic group that has been an oppressed minority for most of history) I'm pretty sure I prefer the latter kind of culture, where people don't feel it's okay to shit on me because I'm Jewish and I don't have to worry too much about being murdered for no reason. But then, I'm personally so paranoid and distrustful that I'll suspect a lot of people of hating me no matter what kind of culture I'm surrounded by, so it makes no difference if people secretly hate me. ymmv, and obviously being Jewish is not that similar to being Black anymore.

I don't think you are understanding the dynamic in the South. It goes way beyond simple "everyone is racist to some degree" (which is nauseatingly facile when describing situations as complex as, say, the South or the dynamic between the Isrealis and Palestinians), to "we resent the shit out of these people in a way that is now ingrained into our culture".

[Anna Mae Bollocks]

Innocent until proven guilty. Or is that only when you find it personally convenient?

Racists are always ignorant. Why read up on institutionalized racism in the courts? Your little friends might think you're some kind of nigger-lover.

Fuck you.

[East Coast Hustle]

Nigel's right about this conversation. If you can't have it without resorting to appeal to emotion, you should probably bow out of it. We all know how you (and presumably everybody else ITT) feel about racism. Shouting it loudly with an incendiary image and a "FUCK YOU" added in does nothing to advance the dialogue and get to the root of the issue. Especially since some of the people defending the right of the south to secede form the union have raised some incredibly interesting points. Points that remain valid even when applied in a context that makes you angry or uncomfortable.

[Anna Mae Bollocks]

The Confederate flag also is not inherently synonymous with racism or slavery. It can also express a general distrust of authority, a willingness to rebel against what one sees as overbearing government, or a desire to decorate one's orange '69 Charger and escape the grasp of clumsy law enforcement.

Exactly! Similarly, the KKK was a social club where guys could go to get away from their wives. They raised money for charity and did volunteer work and stuff, but all anyone associates with pointy white hoods is a relatively small number of lynchings allegedly carried out by rotten eggs who also happened to be members. Allegedly, because compared to the numbers of murders the KKK was accused of, almost nobody was ever convicted of homicide.

For the same reasons the guys who did this to Emmet Till weren't convicted.



I had no idea you were like that. Pardon me while I go puke my lungs out. 

That is a related but separate conversation. There IS rampant racism and violence and injustice in the South, but like with schoolyard bullying, we need the dialogue to go deeper than "the bullies are bad people" and open it up to "what are the formative forces behind the desire to bully?"

There can't and won't be resolution there until both sides of the dialogue are heard. They DON'T cancel each other out; we can, and must, acknowledge both for any real progress to be made.

Posting emotionally loaded images in order to shut down the conversation is not productive; it's the forum equivalent to waving a sign with a dead baby on it to shut down productive dialogue about abortion.

OK, point taken.

Let me try this again: I think the formative forces behind racial bullying are a manipulation. Letting poor ignorant southern whites think they're better than another group keeps them where the ruling class wants them.

[Anna Mae Bollocks]

Nigel's right about this conversation. If you can't have it without resorting to appeal to emotion, you should probably bow out of it. We all know how you (and presumably everybody else ITT) feel about racism. Shouting it loudly with an incendiary image and a "FUCK YOU" added in does nothing to advance the dialogue and get to the root of the issue. Especially since some of the people defending the right of the south to secede form the union have raised some incredibly interesting points. Points that remain valid even when applied in a context that makes you angry or uncomfortable.

Secession might be a decent option if done for the right reasons. IOW, without the "south will rise again" crap.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I am surprised and disappointed by how much kneejerking has happened in this thread, by intelligent people I respect, at the mere hint that there might be anything valid in the Confederate perspective. It's dishearteningly similar to the dehumanizing reaction I've seen towards Iraqis. It's normal to dehumanize the enemy; this is the survival mechanism that allows us to feel good about letting our neighboring tribe's children starve to death during a famine because we stole all their food. But as rational people, we should be able to step back from that and have a conversation that takes the perspective of the conquered into consideration.

This is reminding me a lot of the reaction I got just a few years ago, when I was flat-out accused of antisemitism and called a Nazi because I dared suggest there might be some validity to the Palestinian resentment toward Israel.

I would suggest that if you are at the point of accusing people of being white supremacists and throwing out the term "nigger-lover" because they aren't spewing 100% condemnation for people who culturally identify with the Confederate south, that you might need to take a deep breath and a reality check on your own prejudices.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

The Confederate flag also is not inherently synonymous with racism or slavery. It can also express a general distrust of authority, a willingness to rebel against what one sees as overbearing government, or a desire to decorate one's orange '69 Charger and escape the grasp of clumsy law enforcement.

Exactly! Similarly, the KKK was a social club where guys could go to get away from their wives. They raised money for charity and did volunteer work and stuff, but all anyone associates with pointy white hoods is a relatively small number of lynchings allegedly carried out by rotten eggs who also happened to be members. Allegedly, because compared to the numbers of murders the KKK was accused of, almost nobody was ever convicted of homicide.

For the same reasons the guys who did this to Emmet Till weren't convicted.

I had no idea you were like that. Pardon me while I go puke my lungs out. 

That is a related but separate conversation. There IS rampant racism and violence and injustice in the South, but like with schoolyard bullying, we need the dialogue to go deeper than "the bullies are bad people" and open it up to "what are the formative forces behind the desire to bully?"

There can't and won't be resolution there until both sides of the dialogue are heard. They DON'T cancel each other out; we can, and must, acknowledge both for any real progress to be made.

Posting emotionally loaded images in order to shut down the conversation is not productive; it's the forum equivalent to waving a sign with a dead baby on it to shut down productive dialogue about abortion.

OK, point taken.

Let me try this again: I think the formative forces behind racial bullying are a manipulation. Letting poor ignorant southern whites think they're better than another group keeps them where the ruling class wants them.

That is a valid point. It's not a rebuttal to anything, but it is a valid element of the dynamic.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I'd also like to point out that the us/them dichotomy is also a manipulative trap, and you're falling into it right there when you say "poor ignorant southern whites".

The whole situation is really complex, and obviously a lot of people feel really threatened by it, which drives us to try to find simplistic ways to pigeonhole the issue and everyone involved in it into some simple, tidy package. It's not simple, and it's not tidy.

[Anna Mae Bollocks]

I'd also like to point out that the us/them dichotomy is also a manipulative trap, and you're falling into it right there when you say "poor ignorant southern whites".

The whole situation is really complex, and obviously a lot of people feel really threatened by it, which drives us to try to find simplistic ways to pigeonhole the issue and everyone involved in it into some simple, tidy package. It's not simple, and it's not tidy.

OK. Admittedly there are a lot of racists who are not poor, or southern.
Racism is willed ignorance, though.
I think it started as a way to manipulate the lower classes. Let the white sharecroppers think they're better, etc. It's a method of exploitation.
It spread and metasticized, so now we have people like Newt Gingrich. 

[Anna Mae Bollocks]

But my point in the beginning was that a lot of klan members weren't convicted because of institutionalized racism. A lot of judges were klan affiliated. We're talking about an era when Kennedy had to send in the National Guard to escort kids to school.

[East Coast Hustle]

There are also alot of poor southerners who aren't racist, which is an important point.

[East Coast Hustle]

But my point in the beginning was that a lot of klan members weren't convicted because of institutionalized racism. A lot of judges were klan affiliated. We're talking about an era when Kennedy had to send in the National Guard to escort kids to school.

And that's one of the reasons for this discussion. We're interested in the historical and cultural context that lead to racism being so culturally and legally entrenched in the Confederate South, and whether or not things would have been different (or even better) if the south hadn't been subjected to both military conquest and the subsequent cultural and financial domination at the hands of the conquerors.