A curiosity about the South, for people who live here

[The Good Reverend Roger]

I can see it for everything mentioned so far, but I don't really see the US being much influenced by the Native Americans. OK, the US representative republic was a direct rip from the Six Nations, but other than that I just don't see much.

You mean besides the fact that everyone in the damn country insists that they're descended from an Indian princess or some shit?    

Also, our military was VERY heavily influenced by the various tribes and nations; some of the doctrine developed then is still in place today.

I knew they cribbed a lot of strategic stuff after pwnage at battles like the Fetterman fight, but I'd like to know about the doctrine. 

The way squads move in a double vee pattern, for example.

Also worth considering:  Half of our place names are the original (or close to) words used by the Native Americans.

Hell, our paratroopers shout Geronimo's name when they jump, to give them courage (I think the old guy would have gotten a kick out of that).

[Anna Mae Bollocks]

I can see it for everything mentioned so far, but I don't really see the US being much influenced by the Native Americans. OK, the US representative republic was a direct rip from the Six Nations, but other than that I just don't see much.

You mean besides the fact that everyone in the damn country insists that they're descended from an Indian princess or some shit?    

Also, our military was VERY heavily influenced by the various tribes and nations; some of the doctrine developed then is still in place today.

I knew they cribbed a lot of strategic stuff after pwnage at battles like the Fetterman fight, but I'd like to know about the doctrine. 

The way squads move in a double vee pattern, for example.

Also worth considering:  Half of our place names are the original (or close to) words used by the Native Americans.

Hell, our paratroopers shout Geronimo's name when they jump, to give them courage (I think the old guy would have gotten a kick out of that).

More than likely.  And yes, a LOT of place names. Even animal names - I've heard that "raccoon" comes from an Algonquian word. I'll be damned.   
You can usually tell when the white people named things out west. The names tend to contain "death", "dead", "hell" or "devil". 

[The Good Reverend Roger]

I can see it for everything mentioned so far, but I don't really see the US being much influenced by the Native Americans. OK, the US representative republic was a direct rip from the Six Nations, but other than that I just don't see much.

You mean besides the fact that everyone in the damn country insists that they're descended from an Indian princess or some shit?    

Also, our military was VERY heavily influenced by the various tribes and nations; some of the doctrine developed then is still in place today.

I knew they cribbed a lot of strategic stuff after pwnage at battles like the Fetterman fight, but I'd like to know about the doctrine. 

The way squads move in a double vee pattern, for example.

Also worth considering:  Half of our place names are the original (or close to) words used by the Native Americans.

Hell, our paratroopers shout Geronimo's name when they jump, to give them courage (I think the old guy would have gotten a kick out of that).

More than likely.  And yes, a LOT of place names. Even animal names - I've heard that "raccoon" comes from an Algonquian word. I'll be damned.   
You can usually tell when the white people named things out west. The names tend to contain "death", "dead", "hell" or "devil". 

That's because there's no air.

[Anna Mae Bollocks]

I can see it for everything mentioned so far, but I don't really see the US being much influenced by the Native Americans. OK, the US representative republic was a direct rip from the Six Nations, but other than that I just don't see much.

You mean besides the fact that everyone in the damn country insists that they're descended from an Indian princess or some shit?    

Also, our military was VERY heavily influenced by the various tribes and nations; some of the doctrine developed then is still in place today.

I knew they cribbed a lot of strategic stuff after pwnage at battles like the Fetterman fight, but I'd like to know about the doctrine. 

The way squads move in a double vee pattern, for example.

Also worth considering:  Half of our place names are the original (or close to) words used by the Native Americans.

Hell, our paratroopers shout Geronimo's name when they jump, to give them courage (I think the old guy would have gotten a kick out of that).

More than likely.  And yes, a LOT of place names. Even animal names - I've heard that "raccoon" comes from an Algonquian word. I'll be damned.   
You can usually tell when the white people named things out west. The names tend to contain "death", "dead", "hell" or "devil". 

That's because there's no air.

Or shade.

Or water.

[E.O.T.]

Of course the south won. They were fighting for freedom, which is always the right thing to do - it was a moral victory.

Raw and stinking bullshit.  They were fighting for a static aristocracy.

They were fighting for the freedom to determine how to run their own economy and government. You can't really say that someone has the God-given right to pursue happiness, and then turn around and say "Well, but only if your method of pursuing happiness doesn't include human trafficking." These were honest, Christian farmers being faced with the possibility of being unable to leave their workforce to their children. Similarly, being forced allow illiterate non-citizens with no stake in the country to cast votes defeats the entire purpose of democracy - it's not self-determination if an outside power is manipulating the voting population to  its own ends.

It's not Freedom if you can't abuse it.

I'm leaving this thread now, out of sheer depression brought on by watching two supposed bipeds defend/support this sort of shit.

WHICH IS EXACTLY

          why you need to stay and this thread needs to happen. vex and ga are doing an outstanding job, imo, in bringing a voice of reason to this issue. the very fact that most immediate reaction to any of this underlines the idea that people from the south are not people, but some kind of sub human, demands this thread to exist. nigel brought it out in point, the issues connected to the south and the confederacy  are cloaked in so much womp that even incredibly intelligent folks have only frothing response to all of it. this is important dialogue.

I never said people from the South are subhuman.  They are all too human, and many of them carry an all-too infectious meme.  My personal (anecdotal, but that's all I have to work with) experience in the South has been universally shitty, with 90% of everyone I've met being at least partially billygoon.

OK,

          i never said that you said (like that?) people from the south are subhuman. i did say that "most immediate reaction" denoted thusly. i totally remember you phoning me while you were in texas with all this surprise about the back-assedness of it all, and all i could do was laugh, because i thought, "what the hell did you expect?"

HOWEVER,

          roger, calling someone "billygoon" isn't necessarily not calling them sub-human 

Okay, whatever.  Since you're going to put words in my mouth, there's no need for me to be in the conversation.

GOOD REVEREND ROGER,

          you said billygoon. i'm not putting words in your mouth. why is that becoming a theme in this thread?

[E.O.T.]

So your assertion that you can't have an evil bad stand is retarded, and

EITHER
     so are you for not understanding,

OR
     you're trolling, in which case arguing with you being pointless should be acknlowledged.

FREAKY

          !! (love the flashback!!)

[E.O.T.]

Of course the south won. They were fighting for freedom, which is always the right thing to do - it was a moral victory.

Raw and stinking bullshit.  They were fighting for a static aristocracy.

They were fighting for the freedom to determine how to run their own economy and government. You can't really say that someone has the God-given right to pursue happiness, and then turn around and say "Well, but only if your method of pursuing happiness doesn't include human trafficking." These were honest, Christian farmers being faced with the possibility of being unable to leave their workforce to their children. Similarly, being forced allow illiterate non-citizens with no stake in the country to cast votes defeats the entire purpose of democracy - it's not self-determination if an outside power is manipulating the voting population to  its own ends.

It's not Freedom if you can't abuse it.

I'm leaving this thread now, out of sheer depression brought on by watching two supposed bipeds defend/support this sort of shit.

WHICH IS EXACTLY

          why you need to stay and this thread needs to happen. vex and ga are doing an outstanding job, imo, in bringing a voice of reason to this issue. the very fact that most immediate reaction to any of this underlines the idea that people from the south are not people, but some kind of sub human, demands this thread to exist. nigel brought it out in point, the issues connected to the south and the confederacy  are cloaked in so much womp that even incredibly intelligent folks have only frothing response to all of it. this is important dialogue.

I never said people from the South are subhuman.  They are all too human, and many of them carry an all-too infectious meme.  My personal (anecdotal, but that's all I have to work with) experience in the South has been universally shitty, with 90% of everyone I've met being at least partially billygoon.

OK,

          i never said that you said (like that?) people from the south are subhuman. i did say that "most immediate reaction" denoted thusly. i totally remember you phoning me while you were in texas with all this surprise about the back-assedness of it all, and all i could do was laugh, because i thought, "what the hell did you expect?"

HOWEVER,

          roger, calling someone "billygoon" isn't necessarily not calling them sub-human 

Come to Texas. "Billygoon" is perfectly appropriate. YOU'LL SEE.

HA HA

          i don't really know what that means, but i think it's hilarious

[E.O.T.]

The Southeastern Meme:

1.  "America is for 'real Americans'".  The definition of "real Americans" varies to a degree, but it typically means American born people with conservative Christian & jingoistic views.  Blacks and Hispanics may be excluded regardless of the circumstances of their birth.

2.  "Nuke the bastards."  The identity of the bastards may change from time to time, and "nuke" may be substituted with "invade", "bomb", or "starve 'em out".  Just because.

3.  "Women are only good for fucking and fucking up."  This is a fairly rare component of the meme, usually found in the Appalachias and Texas.  In other areas, it may simply be "women have their place; they should stay in it".

4.  "Support the Troops."  Nobody knows what the fuck this means.  It seems to have something to do with supporting wars regardless of motive and regardless of cost in cash or human lives.

5.  "Education < a punch in the face."  If you feel intimidated intellectually, beat the fucker up.

6.  "NASCAR = Patriotism".  No shit.

7.  "The South shall rise again." (Lost Cause)  IE, we were right to fight, and one day we'll do it again.

8.  "There's a difference between Black people and niggers".  Nuff said.

9.  "Any White woman who sleeps with or even associates with non-Whites is 'tainted'."  This is pretty much EVERYWHERE.

10.  "This is a Christian nation, so faggots should die."

There's probably some that I've forgotten, but those are the major points.

With the exception of the "South shall rise again" bit, that's the exact same as everywhere else in America. I am, however, enjoying the irony of watching people turn southerners into "Other" for the crime of, uhh, turning other people into "Other".

As I said, keeping the South was a mistake, as the bastards contaminated the rest of the country.

And as far as I'm concerned, all humans are "Other".  That's why I hang out with freaks.

ROGER,

          so we are to understand that all people from the south are bastards which contaminated the rest of the country? that's not bigoted. saying you hang out with "freaks" is not a get out of jail free card when you are insisting an entire culture of people are a contaminant. sure, that is also all people, but that's not what you are saying. what about blacks who live in the south?

I think I said about 30 times that this is NOT universal. 

I am not about to spend all fucking day speaking e-prime. 

Go shit in your hat.

I DO SHIT IN MY HAT,

          now quit making generalized statements which can very easily be misunderstood in a conversation

[E.O.T.]

I do find it interesting that Cain's description of the South's military strategy makes him a bigot of some kind.  So now we've reached "revisionist history is canon:  to argue implies racism".

Odd, since the implied stance of everyone ITT engaging in anti-southern bigotry seems to be "defending the south in any way implies racism".

THANK YOU!

          i have to state again, that vex is achieving the unthinkable in bringing this topic to the table and providing completely supported and rational conversation, which is being met with some equally disappointing response.  consider at the fact that i can hardly keep up with this thread cuz it's so explosive!

IT IS TOTALLY O.K.

          to not agree with one another, i am personally all about that, but can we discuss this without all the gutter opinion?

MAN,

          if i said that all africans were stupid, because clearly they're not winning any major military achievements, even if they tried, would you be ok with that? or if i said blacks were slaves because they're stupid, that'd be alright?

HELL NO!

          why are only ech, nigel, vex and g. applesauce able to approach this topic in a reasonable manner? and freaky?

Why are you ignoring the part where they are having two different conversations?  It's where the original conflict came into being and was later cleared up, and you must have read up to that part to know that I was trying to be reasonable.

I can't even wrap my head around this.  You're starting shit, but for what reason?

FREAKY,

          i'm not certain who "they" are but i do feel that there are two different conversations taking place; the original op which is about the civil war era and people addressing civil rights in the 1960's, a hundred years later/ contemporary culture.

[E.O.T.]

          why are only ech, nigel, vex and g. applesauce able to approach this topic in a reasonable manner? and freaky?

Because the rest of us are stupid, obviously.

CURIOUSLY,

          "stupid" is not, not, not a term which i have applied in this conversation. care to support that accusation, roger?

[E.O.T.]

The Southeastern Meme:

1.  "America is for 'real Americans'".  The definition of "real Americans" varies to a degree, but it typically means American born people with conservative Christian & jingoistic views.  Blacks and Hispanics may be excluded regardless of the circumstances of their birth.

2.  "Nuke the bastards."  The identity of the bastards may change from time to time, and "nuke" may be substituted with "invade", "bomb", or "starve 'em out".  Just because.

3.  "Women are only good for fucking and fucking up."  This is a fairly rare component of the meme, usually found in the Appalachias and Texas.  In other areas, it may simply be "women have their place; they should stay in it".

4.  "Support the Troops."  Nobody knows what the fuck this means.  It seems to have something to do with supporting wars regardless of motive and regardless of cost in cash or human lives.

5.  "Education < a punch in the face."  If you feel intimidated intellectually, beat the fucker up.

6.  "NASCAR = Patriotism".  No shit.

7.  "The South shall rise again." (Lost Cause)  IE, we were right to fight, and one day we'll do it again.

8.  "There's a difference between Black people and niggers".  Nuff said.

9.  "Any White woman who sleeps with or even associates with non-Whites is 'tainted'."  This is pretty much EVERYWHERE.

10.  "This is a Christian nation, so faggots should die."

There's probably some that I've forgotten, but those are the major points.

With the exception of the "South shall rise again" bit, that's the exact same as everywhere else in America. I am, however, enjoying the irony of watching people turn southerners into "Other" for the crime of, uhh, turning other people into "Other".

As I said, keeping the South was a mistake, as the bastards contaminated the rest of the country.

And as far as I'm concerned, all humans are "Other".  That's why I hang out with freaks.

ROGER,

          so we are to understand that all people from the south are bastards which contaminated the rest of the country? that's not bigoted. saying you hang out with "freaks" is not a get out of jail free card when you are insisting an entire culture of people are a contaminant. sure, that is also all people, but that's not what you are saying. what about blacks who live in the south?

I think I said about 30 times that this is NOT universal. 

I am not about to spend all fucking day speaking e-prime. 

Go shit in your hat.

JUST FOR SHITS AND GIGGLES,

          can you point me to these thirty points?

[E.O.T.]

EOT:

I never said people from the South are subhuman.  They are all too human, and many of them carry an all-too infectious meme. My personal (anecdotal, but that's all I have to work with) experience in the South has been universally shitty, with 90% of everyone I've met being at least partially billygoon.

FFS. LOCKERS&SCHOOLS&BIGOTS&BIGOTS&BIGOTS

          i don't know what this means. please explain.

[E.O.T.]

EOT:

I never said people from the South are subhuman.  They are all too human, and many of them carry an all-too infectious meme. My personal (anecdotal, but that's all I have to work with) experience in the South has been universally shitty, with 90% of everyone I've met being at least partially billygoon.

FFS. LOCKERS&SCHOOLS&BIGOTS&BIGOTS&BIGOTS

Pointing out what I actually said isn't going to help.  He knew what I said, and he knew precisely what he was doing when he posted.

THAT IS RIDICULOUS

          i have no idea what you mean if you don't make yourself clear.

[E.O.T.]

I'm reasonably certain that I spelled out the fact that the North was bad as well, and that the mixture of the two was worse than the sum of their parts.

"reasonably certain"?

           can you provide support for this?

[E.O.T.]

I'm not particularly interested in ain't-it-awfulling about the prevalence of racism. At this point, I don't think we have any members who think racism is a good idea, so what's the point of condemning it? Yeah, you're right, but it doesn't advance any semblance of a conversation.

The much more compelling question to me is the structure of the worldview that allows for this romantic view of the South before, during, and immediately after the Civil War, and continuing sympathy for the Confederate cause, however that "cause" is remembered. How do otherwise intelligent people end up carrying around that much bigotry and revisionist history in their heads? Responding with "they're stupid / human / manipulated by their leaders for political gain" just short-circuits a discussion that could otherwise have had new ideas to chew on.

Translation:

1.  We've proven that the Klan isn't a "social club", and GA is butthurt about it.

2.  We are to have a conversation without discussing any of the actual events that occurred during and after the war, because it makes GA mad when people diss her Glorious South.

WHERE?

          was this proven?

AND

          WHY DO YOU THINK IT'S OK TO BE CONDESCENDING TO GA?