A curiosity about the South, for people who live here

[LMNO]

DID YOU

        really have to make eleven separate posts

JUST
       
        to keep this shitshow dragging even further through the dirt?

[The Good Reverend Roger]

EOT

     Go back and read a bit.


LMNO


     My pance are straining with compassion for short people.  Ima let this go.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Also, I have to say that it's incorrect to think that I just hate the billygoons, or look down on them.  I do, of course, but they're not the ONLY ones.  In fact, if you're designed to walk on two legs, I hate you.  Which means I hate all humans (because, yes, billygoons are not only human, but are the DEFAULT human), and have a vague dislike for moutain apes, bears, and specially trained dogs.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I never said black people are subhuman.  They are all too human, and many of them carry an all-too infectious meme. My personal (anecdotal, but that's all I have to work with) experience with blacks has been universally shitty, with 90% of every black I've met being at least partially billygoon.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Am I an asshole? 100% yes. But I am also goddamn sick as fuck of people attacking others because of their own prejudices which they absolutely refuse to look at.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

But nobody said the Klan wasn't bad. And nobody said slavery was good. And nobody said blacks were anything like respected or equal in the South. And nobody said the justice system wasn't horribly corrupt to the point of practically enouraging murder (except GA maybe, depending on whether he's trolling or not, which I can't seem to tell). All that's been said here boils down to the following few statements:

- Despite the morally ruinous foundations of the Confederacy, the South should have had every legal right to secede, and the Civil War really was a "War of Northern Aggression," in that the justification on the North's side had nothing to do with slavery or equality and everything to do with power and greed, as usual.

- The Civil War exacerbated the race problem in the South. Whereas blacks were considered subhuman before the war, after the war they were considered both subhuman and representative of a mortal wound to the South. As a result the cultural changes that have opened the South and dissolved (some of the) racism there have been harder to fight than they otherwise would have been.

Nobody here is condoning slavery or racism. So let's leave out the knee-jerk reactions and the "you disagree with Commonly Held Conception X; therefore you are by definition a proponent of the opposite of Commonly Held Conception X." In reality the common perception of the South is a  caricature, grounded in and propagated by the same kind of ignorance and Us vs. Them bullshit that allows racism to thrive.

I wasn't talking about the discussion here.  I was referring to the recurring meme that I have seen every time I have been to the Southeast.

I've only been once that I can recall with any clarity. My dad's aunt and uncle lived there, and that old lady spent an entire 2 days cooking and baking for us ahead of our arrival. When we arrived, there was more food than I've ever seen in a single kitchen, and it was all very very good. Fried chicken, apple pie, peach cobbler, dumplings. Etc. Etc. Etc. I remember that food, and I remember my great-uncle's hands being hardly more than knots of arthritis caused by handling radioactive material at one of the Manhattan Project's secret bases in Tennessee in the 30s and 40s.

Everyone I met in the South was nice. But then, my family is white, and I can admit I have no idea what the fuck I'm talking about when it comes to Southern racism -- nor can I, except to say I know it's there and I deplore it. As for whether they're stupid or not... who isn't?

The entire black/indian side of my family is from the South.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

The Southeastern Meme:

1.  "America is for 'real Americans'".  The definition of "real Americans" varies to a degree, but it typically means American born people with conservative Christian & jingoistic views.  Blacks and Hispanics may be excluded regardless of the circumstances of their birth.

2.  "Nuke the bastards."  The identity of the bastards may change from time to time, and "nuke" may be substituted with "invade", "bomb", or "starve 'em out".  Just because.

3.  "Women are only good for fucking and fucking up."  This is a fairly rare component of the meme, usually found in the Appalachias and Texas.  In other areas, it may simply be "women have their place; they should stay in it".

4.  "Support the Troops."  Nobody knows what the fuck this means.  It seems to have something to do with supporting wars regardless of motive and regardless of cost in cash or human lives.

5.  "Education < a punch in the face."  If you feel intimidated intellectually, beat the fucker up.

6.  "NASCAR = Patriotism".  No shit.

7.  "The South shall rise again." (Lost Cause)  IE, we were right to fight, and one day we'll do it again.

8.  "There's a difference between Black people and niggers".  Nuff said.

9.  "Any White woman who sleeps with or even associates with non-Whites is 'tainted'."  This is pretty much EVERYWHERE.

10.  "This is a Christian nation, so faggots should die."

There's probably some that I've forgotten, but those are the major points.

With the exception of the "South shall rise again" bit, that's the exact same as everywhere else in America. I am, however, enjoying the irony of watching people turn southerners into "Other" for the crime of, uhh, turning other people into "Other".

Yeah.

I should have stayed out of this thread, because I am so disappointed in most of the people in it. I had a higher esteem of the people on this forum, but apparently it was misplaced.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I do find it interesting that Cain's description of the South's military strategy makes him a bigot of some kind.  So now we've reached "revisionist history is canon:  to argue implies racism".

That discussion was dropped when Cain clarified he was talking about the leaders and not the populace.

This. AGAIN. which has been said, what, five times now? But apparently we need red herrings and strawmen for the purposes of demonizing anyone who opposes the wholesale dehumanization of a certain out-group.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I do find it interesting that Cain's description of the South's military strategy makes him a bigot of some kind.  So now we've reached "revisionist history is canon:  to argue implies racism".

Odd, since the implied stance of everyone ITT engaging in anti-southern bigotry seems to be "defending the south in any way implies racism".

It's hypocrisy all the way down.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I was right and EOT was wrong.  I need to stay out of this conversation.

It is going that way, isn't it?

GA states that the Klan is just a social group, and the fact that all-White juries never convicted them (after 1975, convictions have in fact occurred) proves both the fact that is only a social club, and that anyone who disagrees hates due process.

This is apparenly reasonable, and right on the mark.

I state that "based on my experience", my opinion is that a great number of people in the South walk around with a meme strapped to their forehead.

This "implies" that I am a bigot. 

In fact, anyone taking the side I have taken is "implied" to be a bigot, no matter what.  That being the case, there is precisely zero reason to talk about the subject, as absolutely nothing positive can occur.

Your response is perfectly reasonable. If GA is not trolling, I'm going to switch sides in this argument.

Really?

Why the fuck would you "switch sides" just because one person said something as stupid as positing that a lack of convictions in cases of the KKK being accused of murders is proof that they didn't commit those murders?

NOTE, PLEASE, that that is a separate matter from that of whether the KKK was originally founded as an innocuous social organization, as irrelevant as that may be to the topic at hand. Hopefully someone here is still capable of maintaining some kind of logical separation of concepts.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I'm much more interested in the political and cultural implications of secession and/or conquest & occupation of a failed secessionist state by the state it attempted to secede from than I am in making sure we all agree that the KKK were dicks.

I was talking about the effects felt by the occupying state.  Nobody invades anyone without being somehow influenced by the occupied state.  The response I received was a "poisoned well" argument...IE, that the implied argument was bigoted, therefore the argument as stated is invalid, regardless of what was stated and how.

I fail to see how this is different from the normal forms of political correctness.  If we are to have a discussion, then all points of view must be considered in broad daylight.  If, on the other hand, GA gets to make strawman cracks about my supposed disgust for due process, but legitimate observations are "automatically" bigoted, then there is no discussion.  It is instead preaching...Get in the choirbox or get out of the church, so to speak.

Totally, just like since 9/11 Western society has been poisoned by the influence of the Muslim societies it has striven to dominate.

Right?

At least have the intellectual honesty to call a spade a spade.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

That's bull and you know it.

But it's not, Freeky.  Nigel and I discussed NBF last night, and she asked me to post links.  Today, she tells me she could have done that herself, and she doesn't want to talk about him.  V3x showed me where I stand.  ECH and EOT told me what I am.  RWHN, well, he's just RWHN.  I have been told that I am a bigot.  I have been told that I knee jerk.  I have been told that I am not intelligent enough to have a conversation.  I have been told, by damn near everyone, just what exactly I am.  Even LMNO isn't  talking to me.  Cain's already left in disgust, for very similar reasons.

There's nothing left at PD, at least for me, other than the traditional and ever-present CG-esque sniping for "points", and venting of ancient & rancid butthurt, with additional helpings of fresh, new butthurt.

What the hell am I doing here?  There is no good answer.

I told you that the links you posted were nothing more than I had found myself, and that I am not that interested in generals or battles, but in populations and cultures. If you're going to paraphrase me, at least do it with integrity.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

By the way, apologies to just about everyone I ranted about, the bottom of the last page.

Too many benzos, not enough sleep.

Apology accepted, assuming I am included in it.

I am fucking pissed and disappointed as hell right now and should have continued to ignore the thread, despite the fact that it ruined my evening last night without even reading it.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

DID YOU

        really have to make eleven separate posts

JUST
       
        to keep this shitshow dragging even further through the dirt?

Really?

[The Good Reverend Roger]

I never said black people are subhuman.  They are all too human, and many of them carry an all-too infectious meme. My personal (anecdotal, but that's all I have to work with) experience with blacks has been universally shitty, with 90% of every black I've met being at least partially billygoon.

Difference is, I'm talking about a culture, not a race.