Oh Noez! What about Teh Menz? -Patriarchy isn't a dude's friend EITHER!

[CarvedWood]

CW: that shit starts at home. If you don't want to see pussyfooting perhaps you should call out exactly what you see that's hindering this discussion instead of making vague accusations.

I don't know if you were talking about my posts, and if you are I have no problem them being put into question. But it's kind of hard to tell since, you know...

... Are you going to want me to go back to every single post that's already been made?  Because, one, that's more effort than I care to put in, which is why I was vague to begin with, and two, if you don't see it already, you're not going to see it even if I grabbed you by the scruff of your neck and rubbed your nose in it.
If you think I'm talking about your posts, then you have a choice: ignore what I said, or take a second look at your posts and make up your own mind.

Ah. So, we don't even need to discuss any of this, or can't because even if we did I certainly wouldn't get it because I don't already. Congrats on furthering the discussion, finally.

An example would have been nice. I don't know why you're being so passive-aggressive and I don't care. I'm just going to ignore your posts since I'm incapable of understanding them anyway.

OMFG, why is my passive-agressiveness offensive, but your defensiveness is ok?  Why should I have to put someone else on blast to assure you that you're not doing something wrong? 

[CarvedWood]

I second Alty regarding wife number two; gender roles are set by men (and the "woman stays at home" is relatively recent and, random historical fact of the day, courtesy of the Dutch).

The patriarchy is what stereotypes men as, basically, cavemen incapable of controlling themselves, who think exclusively with their dicks (which, coincidely links into rape culture, since women/females are supposed to know this and take care if ourselves accordingly).
Feminism holds you to be capable of being more than that.

Seriously?  In an example that gives two women, one who bucked the gender stereotype and was successful, the other who chose to embrace the stereotype, you're still going to absolve Wife#2 of any blame for the harm she was doing her family, and continue to blame the patriarchy?  OMG, what does a woman have to do to get credit for her own fuckups?

Dude, chill. No one is attacking you. *Her* expectation that househusband get a job and shit is the result of patriarchal expectations and gender roles. Is it her fault for not putting the well-being of the first househusband above her expectation? Yes. She should see that it works better for them like this. Was it her fault for preventing her own husband from nuturing his kids? Yes. And it's grossly unfair for her to do so. But, again, those expectations of hers resulted from traditional, patriarchal gender roles.

But she should be able to rise above the expectations of that patriarchy.  At some point, she has to stop sitting on her ass waiting to be given responsbility over her own life, and take it, instead. 
I'm a strong woman who thinks for herself.  The patriarchy might be to blame for how hard I have to struggle to be me, but it's not to blame if I give up.  And it's not to blame if I choose to embrace it instead.
And if one woman can rise above the patriarchy, it's not the patriarchy's fault if other women believe the lies they're told.

[Salty]

For me a lot of this goes back to the ally part that men (can) play in these issues. But it's foolish to think that men can ONLY be allies and never experience what women experience. OF COURSE men don't experience the same things women do.

But this is why I rally for queer people to stop bickering amongst one another. And certainly women and queer people should realize the fight is the same. The standards, such as they are in the 21st century, set clear lines.

to say  That women are on the "other" side of that line all the time is one thing. To say that men never are is something else.

[CarvedWood]

I second Alty regarding wife number two; gender roles are set by men (and the "woman stays at home" is relatively recent and, random historical fact of the day, courtesy of the Dutch).

The patriarchy is what stereotypes men as, basically, cavemen incapable of controlling themselves, who think exclusively with their dicks (which, coincidely links into rape culture, since women/females are supposed to know this and take care if ourselves accordingly).
Feminism holds you to be capable of being more than that.

Seriously?  In an example that gives two women, one who bucked the gender stereotype and was successful, the other who chose to embrace the stereotype, you're still going to absolve Wife#2 of any blame for the harm she was doing her family, and continue to blame the patriarchy?  OMG, what does a woman have to do to get credit for her own fuckups?

Dude, chill. No one is attacking you. *Her* expectation that househusband get a job and shit is the result of patriarchal expectations and gender roles. Is it her fault for not putting the well-being of the first househusband above her expectation? Yes. She should see that it works better for them like this. Was it her fault for preventing her own husband from nuturing his kids? Yes. And it's grossly unfair for her to do so. But, again, those expectations of hers resulted from traditional, patriarchal gender roles.

But she should be able to rise above the expectations of that patriarchy.  At some point, she has to stop sitting on her ass waiting to be given responsbility over her own life, and take it, instead. 
I'm a strong woman who thinks for herself.  The patriarchy might be to blame for how hard I have to struggle to be me, but it's not to blame if I give up.  And it's not to blame if I choose to embrace it instead.
And if one woman can rise above the patriarchy, it's not the patriarchy's fault if other women believe the lies they're told.

*facepalm*  Oh, dammit, I just did what I said I wasn't going to do.  Damn my argumentative streak!

[CarvedWood]

Did you miss the part where I said "househusband?"  Unless you, your dad, and your brother-in-law are stay-at-home dads.  If they are, you need to say so, because I didn't opt for the telepathy upgrade along with the IE9.  If not, then they're not valid examples.  If you have a job AND you cook, that just makes you "accomplished."

My brother in law is a house-husband (he works a job as well, but from home, and his wife works outside of the house), and this is considered to be admirable by his very-conservative relatives.

So, he's accomplished.  That is admirable.

I have a nephew who is a stay-at-home dad.  Everyone gives him shit for this, says he's stupid and lazy.  And he's had to fight this prejudice since the beginning of his family.  His wife sucks at homemaking, and, although they would be better off financially if he had a job, it's a proven fact that everytime he's left the home to go to work, his household takes a sharp turn for the worse.

We're both arguing from anecdotes here.  What I've seen is very different from what you've seen, which is yet more proof that anecdotes aren't evidence (and neither, I might add, are reality TV shows) for either of our positions.

And your nephew needs to choke some people, and so does his wife.  It is possible that he just has ass-monkeys for relatives, or perhaps there IS an ingrained culture in your area which causes/allows this shit.  Putting up with it is a different story.

If the house is clean, the bills are paid, and kids - if any - are healthy, then everything is fine, and your nephew and his wife should lay in a spare pair of boots, because they should be wearing out their boots by kicking people in the ass.

He does have ass-monkeys for relatives, actually.  In-laws, at least, considering it's his wife's family that gives him more shit than his own, but yeah, I'm often defending him from our own relatives.
And, yes, there is an ingrained culture, from the Native American side as well as the white side. 
There's worse places to live than Arizona.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I would say that something Alty mentioned, albeit not in this context, that is a symptom of how patriarchy oppresses males, is that if a man falls or appears to fall outside of his expected role in patriarchy, ie. "too feminine", he is in danger of being taunted, ostracised, or assaulted.

That's when it's time to choke a motherfucker.

I once watched some yahoo decide that it would be a good idea to mock/harrass 3 transvestites on the street.  It wasn't pretty.

In any case, the man in question has one option that women don't have...IE, he can put on an act, and drop right off the radar.  Not saying that he should ever HAVE to, just that he has a method closed to women.

I don't agree that patriarchies are any real burden on men, at least on the whole.

I think that any system which damages or oppresses a part of the population damages and oppresses the whole population on some level.

If a  man benefits unquestioningly from the oppression, he is not fully human and is damaged in the sense that he's not fully bipedal.

If a man fights against the system, he is expending energy combating oppression that should, ideally, not exist in the first place, and working constantly to divest himself of the programming to unquestioningly accept his privilege.

It doesn't "burden" men in the same way that it burdens women, but it's also not mentally, spiritually, or intellectually healthy for men. Man thrive economically and politically under patriarchal systems, but I am not sure they are thriving as human beings.

[Juana]

I second Alty regarding wife number two; gender roles are set by men (and the "woman stays at home" is relatively recent and, random historical fact of the day, courtesy of the Dutch).

The patriarchy is what stereotypes men as, basically, cavemen incapable of controlling themselves, who think exclusively with their dicks (which, coincidely links into rape culture, since women/females are supposed to know this and take care if ourselves accordingly).
Feminism holds you to be capable of being more than that.

Seriously?  In an example that gives two women, one who bucked the gender stereotype and was successful, the other who chose to embrace the stereotype, you're still going to absolve Wife#2 of any blame for the harm she was doing her family, and continue to blame the patriarchy?  OMG, what does a woman have to do to get credit for her own fuckups?

Dude, chill. No one is attacking you. *Her* expectation that househusband get a job and shit is the result of patriarchal expectations and gender roles. Is it her fault for not putting the well-being of the first househusband above her expectation? Yes. She should see that it works better for them like this. Was it her fault for preventing her own husband from nuturing his kids? Yes. And it's grossly unfair for her to do so. But, again, those expectations of hers resulted from traditional, patriarchal gender roles.

But she should be able to rise above the expectations of that patriarchy.  At some point, she has to stop sitting on her ass waiting to be given responsbility over her own life, and take it, instead. 
I'm a strong woman who thinks for herself.  The patriarchy might be to blame for how hard I have to struggle to be me, but it's not to blame if I give up.  And it's not to blame if I choose to embrace it instead.
And if one woman can rise above the patriarchy, it's not the patriarchy's fault if other women believe the lies they're told.

I agree; she should rise above it. She hasn't and that's her fault. I'm just saying that's where she got the idea and both Worker Bee Husband and Househusband suffer for what the patriarchy expects of men.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

I think that any system which damages or oppresses a part of the population damages and oppresses the whole population on some level.

If a  man benefits unquestioningly from the oppression, he is not fully human and is damaged in the sense that he's not fully bipedal.

Oh, I agree completely.  But stacked up against the effects on women, as LMNO points out, that's pretty small beans, when looked at from a "getting through the pay period" perspective.

If a man fights against the system, he is expending energy combating oppression that should, ideally, not exist in the first place, and working constantly to divest himself of the programming to unquestioningly accept his privilege.

I'm trying to think of a more worthwhile way to spend my time and energy, than on fighting adversity or inequality.  I am reasonably certain that, given a perfect world, I'd turn into a couch potato and just wheeze my way to the grave.

It doesn't "burden" men in the same way that it burdens women, but it's also not mentally, spiritually, or intellectually healthy for men. Man thrive economically and politically under patriarchal systems, but I am not sure they are thriving as human beings.

I think we're in agreement.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

It's going to be difficult to discuss this topic in any meaningful way if every post is pussyfooting around the subject because no one wants to be seen as someone who could mistakenly think that it's not harder for women.  Can we all just agree that this is true, without having to add disclaimers, or come at the topic sideways?
I, at least, have no intention of skewing everything I post on this topic in the hopes that I don't get jumped on for being anti-feminist.  If you believe that of me, fuck you, you're retarded.


I remember watching an episode of "Wife Swap," in which one of the wives that was swapped, was an executive.  She was the breadwinner of the family, and had a househusband to take care of the home and their daughter.  She was swapped with a wife that was a "traditional" homemaker. 
Wife #2 had a husband that was the breadwinner, they had several kids, the wife had some sort of stay-at-home job at the same time she took care of the house, meals, and kids.  It was also quite obvious that she took pride in her role, and although her husband seemed equally stuck in his gender-role, it was also obvious that the wife was largely responsible for his attitude.  This was proven when the first wife forced him to start taking on more responsibilities in the household, like dealing with the kids.  He took to nurturing pretty well, for someone who'd never been allowed to do it before, and surprised himself.  It was something that he and his wife, in equal measure, had been denying him all that time, just because of their strict adherence to their gender roles.

Wife #2, however, made Husband #1's life miserable.  Wife #1 was a successful businesswoman, bringing home plenty of money, and the househusband was a damned good nurturer who totally had his shit together.  Then along comes Wife #2, with her "traditional values" and her strict gender roles, and tried to force him to leave the house and get a job.  She even arranged, through the network, interviews and a job, get this, doing manual labor as a janitor.  Seriously, she made him get a job cleaning lockers and shit.  And he wasn't having it.  I don't blame him - some strange woman is taking care of his house, his daughter, and he's out earning minimum wage at a menial labor job that he didn't need because his wife was bringing home the whole damn pig, not just some bacon?  I'd be pissed about that, too.  He wasn't stupid, or lazy, even though that woman was trying to make him feel that way; he wouldn't have been a failure in the job market, he was just better at being a homemaker.
I seriously hated Wife #2 by the end of the show.  I believe in giving credit where it's due, and giving blame where it's due, as well.  It's hard for me to blame "patriarchy" for a person like her, who helped her husband deny his need to nurture because she hogged that role for herself, who then turns around and tries to do the same thing to someone else's family.

Househusbands are an area where it's obvious to see that patriarchy hurts men as well as women.  Bad enough that society wants to deny a woman the right to a successful career, but let's face it, some men are better at nurturing than the women they marry.  Even in a family where the husband and wife are completely in accord in their flipped roles, where each of them is successful and happy doing what they do, society wants to come along and call that man a weakling, lazy, stupid, not good enough to make it in a career.  But he IS making a career - as a homemaker. 

If a man cooks food outside of the home, he's a chef; if he does it inside the home, he's stupid.  If a man cleans outside of the home, he's a "janitor" or "custodian," but if he does it inside the home, he's lazy.  If a man nurtures a child outside the home, he's a teacher, a nurse, a care-giver; if he does it inside the home, for his own kid, he's weak.
WTF?

I don't see that, an example from "reality" teevee notwithstanding.  My father did and does all the cooking in his household, and that's going back to the 60s.  My brother in law cooks like a mad bastard.  And I can't remember the last time I saw a man embarrassed to change his child's diaper in the restroom on one of those "Koala" tables (whomever thought that up should be fucking sainted).

And I haven't made any disclaimers.  I've called them as I've seen them.  Hell, even Gay men don't have it so rough anymore - and let me stress this last part - in Tucson.  Can't speak for anywhere else, except of course for the glaring counter-example up in the greater Phoenix area, and even THAT isn't that bad.

So, yeah, let's talk about how hard it is to be a guy in the patriarchy.  I get paid, on average, 20% more than a female doing the same level of work.  Waiters look at ME when it's my wife's turn to order, like she's some kind of retard.  They rarely do that twice, it should be noted, for Jenne takes no shit.  Mechanics at the Brakemax don't talk to me like I'm thick-witted, as they do to women who are there to pick up their cars.  I can walk into a job interview for a technical job, and get the job even if there's a woman applying who knows twice as much as me, because A) "guys are more technically-oriented" (actually heard our assistant plant manager say this, for which, granted, he was reprimanded), and B) I won't get pregnant and "goof off for 7-9 months" (heard that one, too).

So, I gotta say, speaking solely from my own experience and observations, the patriarchy isn't exactly Keeping Me Down.

Yes, BUT

The positive things you are describing are progress made due to feminism the breaking down of patriarchy.

[LMNO]

I was going to post something similar to DOUR.  Very concise, Nigel.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I second Alty regarding wife number two; gender roles are set by men (and the "woman stays at home" is relatively recent and, random historical fact of the day, courtesy of the Dutch).

The patriarchy is what stereotypes men as, basically, cavemen incapable of controlling themselves, who think exclusively with their dicks (which, coincidely links into rape culture, since women/females are supposed to know this and take care if ourselves accordingly).
Feminism holds you to be capable of being more than that.

And this.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Yes, BUT

The positive things you are describing are progress made due to feminism the breaking down of patriarchy.

Or pioneering.  My dad was doin' it before it was "acceptable".  Of course, he's also the kind of person that doesn't give a shit about society's opinion, and doesn't bother responding to any sort of criticism concerning things he doesn't view as important...Like who does the cooking.

Which again, I realize, is feminism of a sort.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Did you miss the part where I said "househusband?"  Unless you, your dad, and your brother-in-law are stay-at-home dads.  If they are, you need to say so, because I didn't opt for the telepathy upgrade along with the IE9.  If not, then they're not valid examples.  If you have a job AND you cook, that just makes you "accomplished."

My brother in law is a house-husband (he works a job as well, but from home, and his wife works outside of the house), and this is considered to be admirable by his very-conservative relatives.

I have a nephew who is a stay-at-home dad.  Everyone gives him shit for this, says he's stupid and lazy.  And he's had to fight this prejudice since the beginning of his family.  His wife sucks at homemaking, and, although they would be better off financially if he had a job, it's a proven fact that everytime he's left the home to go to work, his household takes a sharp turn for the worse.

We're both arguing from anecdotes here.  What I've seen is very different from what you've seen, which is yet more proof that anecdotes aren't evidence (and neither, I might add, are reality TV shows) for either of our positions.

And your nephew needs to choke some people, and so does his wife.  It is possible that he just has ass-monkeys for relatives, or perhaps there IS an ingrained culture in your area which causes/allows this shit.  Putting up with it is a different story.

If the house is clean, the bills are paid, and kids - if any - are healthy, then everything is fine, and your nephew and his wife should lay in a spare pair of boots, because they should be wearing out their boots by kicking people in the ass.

<cough>

Having just spent nine years working from home, I am going to goddamn unequivocally say that "working from home" DOES NOT equal "being a homemaker". If my primary job had been taking care of the house and children, and my husband was paying the bills, then sure, yes.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I second Alty regarding wife number two; gender roles are set by men (and the "woman stays at home" is relatively recent and, random historical fact of the day, courtesy of the Dutch).

The patriarchy is what stereotypes men as, basically, cavemen incapable of controlling themselves, who think exclusively with their dicks (which, coincidely links into rape culture, since women/females are supposed to know this and take care if ourselves accordingly).
Feminism holds you to be capable of being more than that.

Seriously?  In an example that gives two women, one who bucked the gender stereotype and was successful, the other who chose to embrace the stereotype, you're still going to absolve Wife#2 of any blame for the harm she was doing her family, and continue to blame the patriarchy?  OMG, what does a woman have to do to get credit for her own fuckups?

I think you aren't understanding the concept of "the patriarchy" as a social structure. Both men and women participate in patriarchy, just as both men and women can participate in feminism. Patriarchy, as a social structure, is what inculcated wife #2 to hold those views. It is easier to go along with dominant society than it is to run counter to it.

Blaming the individual rather than blaming the system is more gratifying on a micro level, but it does nothing to change the macro level. You can't effect social change by blaming individuals, but  you can effect social change by individuals joining together in a larger movement.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

<cough>

Having just spent nine years working from home, I am going to goddamn unequivocally say that "working from home" DOES NOT equal "being a homemaker". If my primary job had been taking care of the house and children, and my husband was paying the bills, then sure, yes.

It does with Chris.  The man is a ball of energy.  Manages a 6 year old son, one-year-old twin girls, his job, AND the house. 

It's unfair, really.  I could use some of that energy.

Youth is wasted on the young.