Oh Noez! What about Teh Menz? -Patriarchy isn't a dude's friend EITHER!

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I named those three to give an example of the interplay between hierarchical factors, not to play "name the hierarchy!". Because that might be opening too broad of a scope for this discussion, if we want to keep this one about patriarchy.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I would (Protestants at the top, Catholics and Orthodox, Jews are next, and then everybody else at the bottom in one giant heap), although some of that plays into race.

Some, yes.  I've seen areas of the country where religion means nothing, and I've seen areas (Oro Valley, AZ and Batavia, IL) where you will lose your job if you are not of the correct religion (never for that reason, of course...There's always an excuse, but it comes down to the people who open their mouths about what religion they are either excel (if Calvinist/Baptist) or fail (if not), with no difference in behavior or performance from those who stay quiet.

Here, it's more important than Black/White, but not as important as Hispanic/White.

So it sounds like race, or at least ethnicity, is still getting a little more weight in determining a person's place in the hierarchy than religion, in that one respect.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

I named those three to give an example of the interplay between hierarchical factors, not to play "name the hierarchy!". Because that might be opening too broad of a scope for this discussion, if we want to keep this one about patriarchy.

Oh, no problem.

I was just wondering how much was patriarchy and how much was other factors.

And there's a lot of interplay between factors.  Focus on the Family, for example, LOOKS like a patriarchal organization like the Promisekeepers, but it actually is closer to financial.

The Promisekeepers, though, reinforce your earlier statement that the patriarchy isn't dead, or even feeling sick.

[Anna Mae Bollocks]

Religion plays a factor, but I would say that it's both less influential and more mutable, and variable from region to region, than the factors of sex, class, and race.

Which explains my initial reaction.  Here, it's definitely as important as gender and race.

Surprisingly, it's not as bad as you would expect here. People who talk about Jebus at work generally get a lot of eyerolls, often from other people who are nominally Christian. It doesn't get them anywhere. Of course Seguin's comprehension of religion could fit in a flea's colon. I had a lady tell me she was OK with her son being married to a Jewish girl because "They believe in Jesus too." I didn't tell her different. 

They hate Moozlimz like Obama, though. 

[Anna Mae Bollocks]

I would (Protestants at the top, Catholics and Orthodox, Jews are next, and then everybody else at the bottom in one giant heap), although some of that plays into race.

Some, yes.  I've seen areas of the country where religion means nothing, and I've seen areas (Oro Valley, AZ and Batavia, IL) where you will lose your job if you are not of the correct religion (never for that reason, of course...There's always an excuse, but it comes down to the people who open their mouths about what religion they are either excel (if Calvinist/Baptist) or fail (if not), with no difference in behavior or performance from those who stay quiet.

Here, it's more important than Black/White, but not as important as Hispanic/White.

So it sounds like race, or at least ethnicity, is still getting a little more weight in determining a person's place in the hierarchy than religion, in that one respect.

Put it this way: this little hole in the road has THREE Methodist churches. One for Black people, one for Mexicans, and one for white people with a few token light-skinned Mexicans.

[Phox]

CW: that shit starts at home. If you don't want to see pussyfooting perhaps you should call out exactly what you see that's hindering this discussion instead of making vague accusations.

I don't know if you were talking about my posts, and if you are I have no problem them being put into question. But it's kind of hard to tell since, you know...

... Are you going to want me to go back to every single post that's already been made?  Because, one, that's more effort than I care to put in, which is why I was vague to begin with, and two, if you don't see it already, you're not going to see it even if I grabbed you by the scruff of your neck and rubbed your nose in it.
If you think I'm talking about your posts, then you have a choice: ignore what I said, or take a second look at your posts and make up your own mind.

I realize this is several pages back, and the discussion has moved on, somewhat, from this point, but, this really struck me as incredibly .. er, stupid.

This post demonstrates nothing but an unwillingness to clarify points and the sort of intellectual laziness that has absolutely no place in any serious discussion. If you have no interest in going back and illustrating what you mean, shut the fuck up and piss off. Better yet, don't bother posting at all. It's so much better for progress in a discussion if the "YOU'RE DOIN' IT WRONG, BUT I'M NOT GONNA TELL YOU WHY" people stay away.

I apologize to everyone having a nice discussion for interrupting with no substance. Please return to saying interesting and insightful things.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

I've been enjoying this conversation immensely, because I have to THINK about it (hence some of the wandering and weird questions), because it's something I haven't ever considered before (ie, the effect on men).

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

I've been enjoying this conversation immensely, because I have to THINK about it (hence some of the wandering and weird questions), because it's something I haven't ever considered before (ie, the effect on men).

I find I keep typing thoughts then not posting them because its such a brain twister for me...

[The Good Reverend Roger]

I've been enjoying this conversation immensely, because I have to THINK about it (hence some of the wandering and weird questions), because it's something I haven't ever considered before (ie, the effect on men).

I find I keep typing thoughts then not posting them because its such a brain twister for me...

When the rock hits you, holler.

I'm not worried about looking like a chauvanist (sp?), because everyone here knows me.  I did put disclaimers on a few of my twistier posts (which gained me the "wrath" of CW, who would have complained equally as much if I hadn't  ), but in general, I'm gonna just post my thoughts and take my beatings, because that's the only way a guy like me can figure shit out.

[Anna Mae Bollocks]

I've been enjoying this conversation immensely, because I have to THINK about it (hence some of the wandering and weird questions), because it's something I haven't ever considered before (ie, the effect on men).

Yes, I never thought about it much. I really don't have anything but personal thoughts so far.

I do want to puke when I see some little kid crying and people start yelling at him to "man up". He's FOUR, FFS. I'm not sure how much the macho thing has to do with the patriarchy, though.

Other than that, I don't have much.

[Phox]

I've been enjoying this conversation immensely, because I have to THINK about it (hence some of the wandering and weird questions), because it's something I haven't ever considered before (ie, the effect on men).

It is a great discussion, small hiccups aside. I find it quite interesting to see everyone's various point of views on topics like this, I, at the moment, have nothing personally to add to the topic aide from it seems that Nigel and I are (surprisingly enough) about 98% in agreement, and Nigel is far more articulate than I on the subject. (This happens way to much to be coincidence. NIGEL IS STEALING MY THOUGHTS!  )

I've been enjoying this conversation immensely, because I have to THINK about it (hence some of the wandering and weird questions), because it's something I haven't ever considered before (ie, the effect on men).

I find I keep typing thoughts then not posting them because its such a brain twister for me...

POST THEM, ASSHOLE! 

Seriously, I find the best way to work through that sort of confusion is to write it out and lay it all out. If you make it to the end without figuring it out, you've got some people to throw ideas back at you until you do.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

I've been enjoying this conversation immensely, because I have to THINK about it (hence some of the wandering and weird questions), because it's something I haven't ever considered before (ie, the effect on men).

Yes, I never thought about it much. I really don't have anything but personal thoughts so far.

I do want to puke when I see some little kid crying and people start yelling at him to "man up". He's FOUR, FFS. I'm not sure how much the macho thing has to do with the patriarchy, though.

Other than that, I don't have much.

I'd say that's partially conditioning (which the patriarchy, as any other system, requires).

[The Good Reverend Roger]

NIGEL IS STEALING MY THOUGHTS!  )

Better check your soul while you're at it.  It's still close to lunch time.

[Phox]

I've been enjoying this conversation immensely, because I have to THINK about it (hence some of the wandering and weird questions), because it's something I haven't ever considered before (ie, the effect on men).

Yes, I never thought about it much. I really don't have anything but personal thoughts so far.

I do want to puke when I see some little kid crying and people start yelling at him to "man up". He's FOUR, FFS. I'm not sure how much the macho thing has to do with the patriarchy, though.

Other than that, I don't have much.

That's more gender role sereotyping, which isn't necessarily "patriarchy", but definitely exploited by the patriarchy.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

I've been enjoying this conversation immensely, because I have to THINK about it (hence some of the wandering and weird questions), because it's something I haven't ever considered before (ie, the effect on men).

Yes, I never thought about it much. I really don't have anything but personal thoughts so far.

I do want to puke when I see some little kid crying and people start yelling at him to "man up". He's FOUR, FFS. I'm not sure how much the macho thing has to do with the patriarchy, though.

Other than that, I don't have much.

That's more gender role sereotyping, which isn't necessarily "patriarchy", but definitely exploited by the patriarchy.

Maybe.  I taught both of my kids that crying is reserved for occasions worth crying over.

Skinned knee?  Quit it.
Broken leg?  Go ahead.

You can't go out with your friends tonight?  Deal with it.
Death in the family?  Go ahead and cry.