Oh Noez! What about Teh Menz? -Patriarchy isn't a dude's friend EITHER!

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

The idea that any person should be considered in any way different from any other person on the basis of anything other than what they do is perplexing and foreign to me, even submerged in a culture that is fraught with these kinds of assessments.

"The fleshy package your personality is wrapped in is in some ways dissimilar, and in other ways similar, to the one mine is wrapped in."

That is the most meaningful statement that can be made concerning the differences between male and female. But the same statement can be made to distinguish any two people, so it is ultimately meaningless.

We can't expect to arrive at any real gender neutrality when we leave the social structures of patriarchy in place. Matriarchy would be the same thing in reverse, so that's a no-go. "Feminism" is probably something closer to the right way, but the fact that its root word is specifically and exclusively female pays too much lip service to this illusion of some inherent distinction between a person who is a woman, and a person who is a man.

I really, really hate repeating myself, but, Vex, women and females are an oppressed group even still. We need a specific movement that denotes who it works for because the work feminism started out to do, way back when, is still not done. Its work won't be done until the kyriarchy has been dismantled because an injury to one oppressed group is ultimately an injury to us all.

I don't disagree with you at all. I just question the usefulness of a movement that specifies females as its intended beneficiary. Even if that benefit is deserved, which it is of course, I'm asking if that goal might be better met by a truly and thoroughly gender-neutral movement at this point. "Feminism," which I agree with, is often written off by those who oppose it simply because it is "for women," and they're dumb enough to be "against women." That feminism is beneficial to both men and women is lost on the vast majority of simpletons who are too dumb to look at a word like "feminism" and see anything beyond the first 3 letters.

If the point is to continue the fight until the last breath of the last die-hard patriarch just so we can all show the world that "ha! women ARE strong!" then Feminism is great. But if the point is to completely eliminate gender as a consideration in the math of a person's value altogether, then why not switch to gender neutrality?

Because to the point that there are issues on the ground that need to be addressed--issues that are overwhelmingly oppressive to one specific class in our society--simply removing the label "woman" from that oppressed class basically reads like "Three Pounds of Flax".

--Not disagreeing with where you're going, just saying that there's a lot of in-between to getting there.

Yup.

[P3nT4gR4m]

Yes.  That's your prerogative to not like it when people cry, and I don't blame you in the least. 




To further the discussion, I agree that while men don't lose as much as women do in the grand scheme of things, I think as people they get a pretty raw deal.  They have to be just so, fit in this box, or -gasp- LOSE YOUR MAN CARD!  If you MUST get touchy-feely, you may only indulge in a short, furtive side hug (btw FUCK YUO ALTY), after which you have to make a rape or sexist joke lol, or talk about boobs or sports or whatever it is you men talk about.  You can't show emotion, cuz that's actin' like a pussy, dawg.  You got worries?  Shit, I don't wanna hear about worries you have about the future!  Talk about tits and ass instead.  You got some deep thoughts on feminism, or what you find to be beautiful in the world, or maybe want to bounce some poetry off me?  FUCKIN' FAG! 

Honestly, I'm running through all the things that guys are supposed to like to do, and I can only come up with some of the most shallow, vile crap that is untrue, I hope.  I mean, like Nigel said upthread, that can't be good for their spirituality or humanity.

Been thinking a bit about this and I'd say that, speaking as a guy, a lot of macho shit is fun and totally suits me, as long as it's not taken seriously. There's a switch in my brain that gets a buzz out of challenging one of my mates to do something mental or he's a pussy. Likewise - to rise to a similar challenge and make a dent in that lamp post, using the power of my head, to earn "man points". I see no reason not to indulge flicking that particular switch, from time to time, in the right company and setting.

I see no harm in it but, if that's all you have, like there's no intellectual, or emotional side to you then you've pretty much overdosed and become a walking cliche.

I just wanna take a second to point out that "pussy" is a gendered insult.

Yeah, but only barely. I don't think it's as bad as saying something like "you drive like a woman" which would definitely be a gendered insult. Referring to a bodypart, tho, is more on par with calling someone a dick or an asshole. And it should be noted that, if you are the type of person who would take offence to me saying something like that then I'm much more likely to do it around you because I'm a bit of a cunt like that.

[Freeky]

[Juana]

I don't find it particularly offensive. Just pointing it out.


Eta: me or him?

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Also, Freaky:  In the UK, "cunt" is a form of punctuation.

Like a semicolon.  It's just there to make them look educated.

[Freeky]

I don't find it particularly offensive. Just pointing it out.


Eta: me or him?

Him.

I find the connotation of pussy more indignation inducing than offensive. Soft, weak, so on.

Women pop small watermelons out of there all the time.  Is that weak or soft? I dare dudes to give themselves gall stones. If you refuse, you're a fucking pussy.

Note: not really a challenge.

[Freeky]

Also, Freaky:  In the UK, "cunt" is a form of punctuation.

Like a semicolon.  It's just there to make them look educated.

Stop be ruining my precious indignation, sir!   

[P3nT4gR4m]

Cunt is the funniest word over here. It's generally considered the worst of the swear words but at the same time 90% of it's use is non insulting. Referring to someone as "this cunt over here" is not an insult, it just means "this person" Calling someone a "bastard" or a "dick", however, both very "tame" swear words is always a direct insult and an excellent way to get a fight started.

[Juana]

I don't find it particularly offensive. Just pointing it out.


Eta: me or him?

Him.

I find the connotation of pussy more indignation inducing than offensive. Soft, weak, so on.

Women pop small watermelons out of there all the time.  Is that weak or soft? I dare dudes to give themselves gall stones. If you refuse, you're a fucking pussy.

Note: not really a challenge.

This is true.

Cunt is the funniest word over here. It's generally considered the worst of the swear words but at the same time 90% of it's use is non insulting. Referring to someone as "this cunt over here" is not an insult, it just means "this person" Calling someone a "bastard" or a "dick", however, both very "tame" swear words is always a direct insult and an excellent way to get a fight started.

What. You people are weird.

[Freeky]

Cunt is the funniest word over here. It's generally considered the worst of the swear words but at the same time 90% of it's use is non insulting. Referring to someone as "this cunt over here" is not an insult, it just means "this person" Calling someone a "bastard" or a "dick", however, both very "tame" swear words is always a direct insult and an excellent way to get a fight started.

So reveresd then.

[P3nT4gR4m]

Seriously. If someone says cunt on teevee, it's still front page news but it's totally non aggressive. "Some cunt must have done that for me" - thanks kind mystery person. "I'm feeling totally cunted" - I'm quite tired. "I knocked my cunt in today" - I had a hard day at work ...

It's a totally awesome word and polite folks really take the hump when you use it, like Roger said - as punctuation 

[Faust]

Yeah, it looks like some people need a Guy Ritchie education marathon. Cunt, faggot and Nigger is used all the time here and is considered mild. Call someone a prick though and you are saying they have pissed you off, there's no jokey way to call someone a prick but scumbags call each other cunt, faggot or nigger all the time.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Seriously. If someone says cunt on teevee, it's still front page news but it's totally non aggressive. "Some cunt must have done that for me" - thanks kind mystery person. "I'm feeling totally cunted" - I'm quite tired. "I knocked my cunt in today" - I had a hard day at work ...

It's a totally awesome word and polite folks really take the hump when you use it, like Roger said - as punctuation 

One of my favorite Britishisms is "No bastard".  As in "No bastard told me that the curry was India hot."

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Yeah, it looks like some people need a Guy Ritchie education marathon.

I spent a lot of time in Liverpool in the 80s and 90s, and when I saw Guy Ritchie's stuff, I thought he was toning it down a tad.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Yes.  That's your prerogative to not like it when people cry, and I don't blame you in the least. 




To further the discussion, I agree that while men don't lose as much as women do in the grand scheme of things, I think as people they get a pretty raw deal.  They have to be just so, fit in this box, or -gasp- LOSE YOUR MAN CARD!  If you MUST get touchy-feely, you may only indulge in a short, furtive side hug (btw FUCK YUO ALTY), after which you have to make a rape or sexist joke lol, or talk about boobs or sports or whatever it is you men talk about.  You can't show emotion, cuz that's actin' like a pussy, dawg.  You got worries?  Shit, I don't wanna hear about worries you have about the future!  Talk about tits and ass instead.  You got some deep thoughts on feminism, or what you find to be beautiful in the world, or maybe want to bounce some poetry off me?  FUCKIN' FAG! 

Honestly, I'm running through all the things that guys are supposed to like to do, and I can only come up with some of the most shallow, vile crap that is untrue, I hope.  I mean, like Nigel said upthread, that can't be good for their spirituality or humanity.

Been thinking a bit about this and I'd say that, speaking as a guy, a lot of macho shit is fun and totally suits me, as long as it's not taken seriously. There's a switch in my brain that gets a buzz out of challenging one of my mates to do something mental or he's a pussy. Likewise - to rise to a similar challenge and make a dent in that lamp post, using the power of my head, to earn "man points". I see no reason not to indulge flicking that particular switch, from time to time, in the right company and setting.

I see no harm in it but, if that's all you have, like there's no intellectual, or emotional side to you then you've pretty much overdosed and become a walking cliche.

I just wanna take a second to point out that "pussy" is a gendered insult.

Yeah, but only barely. I don't think it's as bad as saying something like "you drive like a woman" which would definitely be a gendered insult. Referring to a bodypart, tho, is more on par with calling someone a dick or an asshole. And it should be noted that, if you are the type of person who would take offence to me saying something like that then I'm much more likely to do it around you because I'm a bit of a cunt like that.

Well I guess you've bought in then, haven't you?