Oh Noez! What about Teh Menz? -Patriarchy isn't a dude's friend EITHER!

[Anna Mae Bollocks]

Catch 22?

You get attention from the media for using a controversial word, but the message isnt passed on or is distorted.

I had an alarming number of conversations leading up to the first march that went something like this:

Stranger: I saw an article in [insert newspaper/website/television channel here] about this "slut" walk. What's the point in a march where you just yell about wanting to dress like sluts? No one is going to respect you for it. I agree that 'sluts' shouldn't get raped, but all you're doing is objectifying yourselves.
Signora: Leaving aside for the moment that the level of respect I deserve really has next-to-nothing to do with the amount of skin I do or do not cover up at any given time, that's not actually what SlutWalk is about at all. We are fighting the myths around the types of people who are sexually assaulted, who is responsible, and why they occur. This is a march to fight the myths around the types of people who are sexually assaulted, who is responsible, and why they occur. We are rallying to place the blame for sexual assault where it belongs: on the perpetrators. We are promoting the idea that women should be able to dress however they like without having to wonder if they will be blamed if they are attacked – and that 'slut' should not be seen as an inherently bad thing. We aim to put an end to victims' sexual history being brought up at trial as a weapon for the defence, and we wish to get the message out there: no means no, yes means yes, and only our words can consent for us – not our bodies or our clothes. We also firmly stand behind the truth that sexual assault is not only something done by men to women, and that not all sexual assault is rape.
Stranger: Oh. Well that's actually... when's the march again?

So while I have no doubt that there were people who saw an interview on TV, thought "LOL stupid sluts" and went on their merry way without bothering to educate themselves (so... fuck 'em!), there were also a lot of people who, because it was covered (albeit in a very distorted way) by the media, rocked up and marched alongside us on the day. Which is all we could ask for, really.

Yeah. Hell yeah. ^^

[The Dark Monk]

The curious ones will always inquire, they require no attention.
The opposing will always oppose, they require no attention.
The stupid will continue to be stupid, they require no attention.
The enlightened shall share their view, and be ridiculed for it, so many keep silent.
Once in a while one breaks loose, for they realize:
The aim is not for the stupid, for that is a disease curable only by death.
The aim is for those ignorant, who have a chance to actually live.

I believe an ignorant stranger became a bit enlightened that day ^.^

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Basically, if your stance is the tired old "I'M NOT GUNNA THINK ABOUT OR OBJECTIVELY DISCUSS THE WIDER SOCIAL IMPLICATIONS OF COMMON LANGUAGE USAGES 'CAUSE I RAWK TOO HARD, FUCKEM" why are you even participating in this conversation? Don't you have a dominant paradigm to go uphold?

FFS. I know, consciousness is hard. SHOWING US WHAT A TOUGH GUY YOU ARE is much, much easier, because you don't even have to take off your nametag.

Patronising personal insults aside (I don't expect better from you) I'll have a stab at answering that. Using gendered insults, as intended gendered insults is a bad thing - no argument from me there. However, when something is not a gendered insult and merely a lighthearted pisstake between me and another consenting adult and then someone getting on my case about it reeks of censorship. It's everything that's bullshit about "politically correct" and it's headed straight to Newspeak town. Sure, some people might use a word with a certain mindset that should be attacked, where others are just using a word. Attacking the word and not the mindset is typical dumbfuck behaviour. I do not and will not respect that.

I maintain that, in a macho-bullshit setting, calling your pal a pussy is not an attack on seven thousand years of womens rights. That's my position the fact that I rawk too hard is merely coincidental.

That wasn't a personal attack, it addressed your specific behavior that I take issue with, not your personhood. And you didn't reply to the post that directly addressed you, so just to make sure you read it:

If you're prepared to label me as a misogynist on the strength of which swear words I use then you are exactly the kind of person I want to offend. Want to try the old "I don't realise it but..." bullshit? Good luck with that.

No, I just think you've gotten so caught up in showing everybody what a badass you are, you've forgotten how to walk upright. It just disappoints me in the way it always disappoints me when I know someone is capable of better. I know... you Don't Care™. I've heard it enough times to know it's part of your uniform.

And, just like I explained to Roger a couple of days ago, these threads are about broader cultural implications, not about one person's use and intentions.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

The curious ones will always inquire, they require no attention.
The opposing will always oppose, they require no attention.
The stupid will continue to be stupid, they require no attention.
The enlightened shall share their view, and be ridiculed for it, so many keep silent.
Once in a while one breaks loose, for they realize:
The aim is not for the stupid, for that is a disease curable only by death.
The aim is for those ignorant, who have a chance to actually live.

I believe an ignorant stranger became a bit enlightened that day ^.^

I believe he may have instead laughed at a pseudo-zen hippie.

But that's just my opinion.  I wasn't there.

[P3nT4gR4m]

Basically, if your stance is the tired old "I'M NOT GUNNA THINK ABOUT OR OBJECTIVELY DISCUSS THE WIDER SOCIAL IMPLICATIONS OF COMMON LANGUAGE USAGES 'CAUSE I RAWK TOO HARD, FUCKEM" why are you even participating in this conversation? Don't you have a dominant paradigm to go uphold?

FFS. I know, consciousness is hard. SHOWING US WHAT A TOUGH GUY YOU ARE is much, much easier, because you don't even have to take off your nametag.

Patronising personal insults aside (I don't expect better from you) I'll have a stab at answering that. Using gendered insults, as intended gendered insults is a bad thing - no argument from me there. However, when something is not a gendered insult and merely a lighthearted pisstake between me and another consenting adult and then someone getting on my case about it reeks of censorship. It's everything that's bullshit about "politically correct" and it's headed straight to Newspeak town. Sure, some people might use a word with a certain mindset that should be attacked, where others are just using a word. Attacking the word and not the mindset is typical dumbfuck behaviour. I do not and will not respect that.

I maintain that, in a macho-bullshit setting, calling your pal a pussy is not an attack on seven thousand years of womens rights. That's my position the fact that I rawk too hard is merely coincidental.

That wasn't a personal attack, it addressed your specific behavior that I take issue with, not your personhood. And you didn't reply to the post that directly addressed you, so just to make sure you read it:

If you're prepared to label me as a misogynist on the strength of which swear words I use then you are exactly the kind of person I want to offend. Want to try the old "I don't realise it but..." bullshit? Good luck with that.

No, I just think you've gotten so caught up in showing everybody what a badass you are, you've forgotten how to walk upright. It just disappoints me in the way it always disappoints me when I know someone is capable of better. I know... you Don't Care™. I've heard it enough times to know it's part of your uniform.

And, just like I explained to Roger a couple of days ago, these threads are about broader cultural implications, not about one person's use and intentions.

First off - I read both those posts back to back, so I ended up replying to both of them.

No, I just think you've gotten so caught up in showing everybody what a badass you are, you've forgotten how to walk upright. It just disappoints me in the way it always disappoints me when I know someone is capable of better.

this was the part that I took as a personal insult. It was the repeated use of the word "you" that did it for me.

Fair enough when I attack an attitude I do tend to adopt a fuck you attitude so I'll try and dial that back in the interest of getting my point across. Believe it or not I do actually have one. I accept the wider cultural implications of certain turns of phrase or language constructs or whatever but, I feel that a lot of it is actually harmless, the difference being intent.

Despite what you might think, I don't believe I'm the only one. Hell, I don't even think I'm necessarily in a minority. I think a lot of guys like me use gendered insults and/or swear words without necessarily hating on women, subconsciously or otherwise. For example - someone is bitching and whining about some gruelling task we've voluntarily subjected ourselves to, it's quite common for us to tell them to "man up" this is particularly amusing if it's a woman doing the complaining. You're implying that men are superior but you are not doing it in a serious way otherwise you'd be a complete dick and the woman would rightly take the hump over it.

I get the impression, tho, that because of these "wider cultural implications" some folks would be happier if they passed a law to make the saying of these kind of things illegal, just to deal with the minority who would say shit like that and wholeheartedly mean it or, even more insidiously, educate us all until we agree that it's badwrong and that's what I'm against - blanket censorship as a shortcut to thinking.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

this was the part that I took as a personal insult. It was the repeated use of the word "you" that did it for me.

P3nt:  You had just done the very same thing yourself¹.

Action/reaction.  What else would you expect from the universe, or anyone living in it?






¹

If you're prepared to label me as a misogynist on the strength of which swear words I use then you are exactly the kind of person I want to offend. Want to try the old "I don't realise it but..." bullshit? Good luck with that.

[P3nT4gR4m]

LOL. No shit, I hadn't even noticed that! But it's exactly what I said. The intention was hypothetical - "If you..." but there was no reason not to use "If someone"

I'm also aware that on a deep, dark level, which I'm only really aware of in retrospect, it was intentional. It was an attack. It had aggression behind it. Apologies Nigel, I'm letting my monkey show again.

[Freeky]

You say you don't mean any harm when you use gendered insults. I believe you. But I have to wonder, does this general use (that is, pent is included but not the only subject) of casual insulting enforce someone's women hating view? And doesn't that just perpetuate woman = insult no matter how mild?  I think it might.

[tyrannosaurus vex]

Hell hath no fury like an person of unspecified gender scorned.

[Freeky]

Hell hath no fury like an person of unspecified gender scorned.

Fine, fuck you all then.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

I said I was leaving for the day.

And then I came back anyway.  Because I'm DUMB.  Because I seem to have some sort of unconscious addiction to BUTTHURT.

Fucking P3nt apologized.  He continues to get shat on.  That's a GREAT incentive for people to change their minds.  Vex makes a joke.  We can't have that, this is SRS BSNAZZ.

WHAT WE CAN'T SEEM TO FUCKING HAVE HERE IS A CONVERSATION THAT DOESN'T COME PRE-LOADED WITH ASININE BUTTHURT FROM 2010.

And we were doing SO well.

[P3nT4gR4m]

shat on? Might have missed that, or saw it a different way or something

[Juana]

While I'm glad that happened, I don't think we've finished discussing gendered insults and that can be done without wank directed at any one person. So I, at least, would like the conversation to continue.

Freeky said what I would say, pretty much. Associating weakness with women/females contributes to the idea that we are lesser. It's femmephobia, whether or not you mean it to be.




edited for redundant wording.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

I just found Vex's post funny for the same reason I found the great Chicago debate about replacing "manhole" with "personhole" funny, back in 1997.

In any case, swearing is a personal thing.  It's like prayer, in some ways.  Provided that it isn't directed at a person, I fail to see what the problem is.  Even if it IS directed at a person, if it is used as a pronoun instead of a slam on perceived traits, I still don't see a problem.

Examples:

1.  This clutch plate is being a cunt.  <--- I do it all the time.

2.  That dickhole over there is the guy with whom you need to speak.  <--- no problem.

3.  You drive like a girl.  <--- Not good.

[Freeky]

Fucking P3nt apologized.  He continues to get shat on. 

Excuse me?  Trying to make a cogent point is shitting on someone?  Fuck you, Roger, that's god damn hurtful.

Vex makes a joke.  We can't have that, this is SRS BSNAZZ.

It was a jab at me and what I was trying to say.  And shit, if no one takes me seriously ANYWAY, I might as well act like a complete psycho bitch, because LOL it's just Freeky, how silly!   

Why are you being like this at me?