Oh Noez! What about Teh Menz? -Patriarchy isn't a dude's friend EITHER!

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Scrrrrraaaaaape.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I am actually unconvinced, as I saw the Webster's 1913 citation and found it very odd that there are absolutely no supporting citations other than a quote that is impossible to find elsewhere, nor has any other dictionary ever used that origin. I was hoping you would have something a little more substantive, especially since dictionary editors of that era were notorious for simply making shit up in order to claim to have better/different information than other dictionaries.

Not that it's particularly relevant to modern usage and understanding, but I just find that a bit sketchy.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

Scrrrrraaaaaape.

Yep right from the dictionary page. Also the Wikipedia page. You don't think I keep that depth of shit in my head do you? I remembered the etymology being different than assumed from a discussion a long time ago, but since I no longer have my books or notes I googled it. I think I mentioned that in one of the earlier posts.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

It doesn't matter.

What does the word mean TODAY? 

What it meant 800 years ago in Belgium makes no difference at all.  It's just really weak rationalization, and it sounds like the heels of boots being dragged through caliche.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Scrrrrraaaaaape.

Yep right from the dictionary page. Also the Wikipedia page. You don't think I keep that depth of shit in my head do you? I remembered the etymology being different than assumed from a discussion a long time ago, but since I no longer have my books or notes I googled it. I think I mentioned that in one of the earlier posts.

You're completely missing my point, or conflating my argument with Nigel's argument.

[The Johnny]

Hes just attempting to see the origin of the word, he stated its not an argument to if it should be used or not.

[Phox]

Rat, the problem:

Then: "Pussy" as a term for women, cats, pussy willows, whatever.... meant "soft, fluffy, cuddly, etc."

Today: "Pussy" as an insult means "soft, weak, vagina, etc."

Do you see where there is overlap, regardless of actual origins?

[ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞]

The following is a rationalization that my brain came up with. I know it's not right in spite of there being a little truth to it, but I thought I'd offer it up as an example of a way that patriarchal ideas can manifest. I'm also depositing it here for the sake of dissection.

Women tend to be physically smaller and have less upper body strength than men, so why is it such a no-no to link femininity to weakness? On one hand I hear women saying that men don't understand how inequality in strength and size fuels feelings of vulnerability around men, yet women seem to not want womanhood or femininity otherwise linked with weakness.

Unfortunately, it's entirely appropriate for women to be concerned about being physically overpowered as it's basic fact that most men are stronger than most women. For the average man, such a concern is less warranted as he's likely to have a more even match when push comes to shove. So when guys disparage one another using words conceptually linked to women it seems less about putting women down and more an inference that what is an appropriate concern for a woman is often not an appropriate concern for man.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Hes just attempting to see the origin of the word, he stated its not an argument to if it should be used or not.

I think etymology can be enlightening, but I the relevance of every single etymology to the discussion varies a lot. I would say that most are interesting to know; for example, I think that it's very culturally revealing that "hysterical" has its roots in the same word as "uterus", but I wouldn't suggest changing our use of the word at this point because most people don't even make that association. It's just a little tidbit of historical misogyny trivia to toss around. Since the current use of the word "pussy" associates it with female genitalia and "girly" behavior, it's just another piece of the whole cultural puzzle to take in, whether it derives from a single or multiple root origins.

I'm interested in etymology, and I would say that if it did first emerge with a separate root, it's also revealing of our culture that it eventually merged with "pussy" meaning vulva. I'm just skeptical of that particular etymology, as it seems particularly tenuous and not at all well cited.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

I am actually unconvinced, as I saw the Webster's 1913 citation and found it very odd that there are absolutely no supporting citations other than a quote that is impossible to find elsewhere, nor has any other dictionary ever used that origin. I was hoping you would have something a little more substantive, especially since dictionary editors of that era were notorious for simply making shit up in order to claim to have better/different information than other dictionaries.

Not that it's particularly relevant to modern usage and understanding, but I just find that a bit sketchy.

Which part seems unconvincing?

Pursy can be found in several historical quotes. Pussy as an endearing term can be found in several historical quotes. Pussy as a vulgar insult to a man seems defined in the 1828 and 1913 Websters and most other references I can find either directly source that dictionary, or make statements that appear very similar.

It could be made up. I have not, however, found any other dictionaries or reference material online that disagrees with it (and I originally remembered it from a lecture 20 years ago, but I'd guess the teacher probably got her source from Webster) . Maybe they're all just cribbing from Webster. I will go wander over to the library this weekend and see if I can find any older references.

And yeah, I'm looking for the origin of the word. The argument has been made that the word as vulgar slang for a guy exists because of the misogynistic culture they developed in. IF (and we must assume IF) the "weak man" is actually from 'pursy', rather than 'pussy' than the origin is no more misogynistic than 'niggardly' is racist.

When I think about how 'pussy' gets used in slang...

Pussy can mean vagina, or sex "Baby, I love to eat your pussy". That's not particularly misogynistic, any more than cock or dick.
Pussy can be denigrating to a woman "Look at that pussy that just walked in" and is obviously misogynistic in that usage.
Pussy can mean a weak guy, and that's the bit that I am trying to dig into. Is it "weak guy" because he's like a woman, or is it "weak guy" because he's "pursy"?

IF (and I'm trying to stress that here) the answer is that it does indeed come from pursy... then the word isn't particularly misogynistic except in a case where the usage is reducing the value of the woman to her sexual value, even in today's usage. 

Rat, the problem:

Then: "Pussy" as a term for women, cats, pussy willows, whatever.... meant "soft, fluffy, cuddly, etc."

Today: "Pussy" as an insult means "soft, weak, vagina, etc."

Do you see where there is overlap, regardless of actual origins?

Well, IF the Websters entry is right then "Then" (early 20the century) Pussy meant soft/fluffy/cuddly/cat/rabbit/fur (Saxon) from one root source. It meant 'endearing term for a girl' (French) from another root source and it meant 'weak' ('pursy') from a completely different root source.

Yes, today we might conflate them all together and it makes a good argument for people who want to be careful not to offend women to eschew its usage. However, the 'root' of the issue is if the term came about because of a misogynistic culture that saw women as weak, or if it came about from two completely different sources.

There are people that dislike the word niggardly because it overlaps the slur for a race and negative traits of being stingy or miserly. The word though has nothing, at all, to do with race, it just happens to sound like it. IF Websters is right, then 'pussy' suffers from the same issue.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

The following is a rationalization that my brain came up with. I know it's not right in spite of there being a little truth to it, but I thought I'd offer it up as an example of a way that patriarchal ideas can manifest. I'm also depositing it here for the sake of dissection.

Women tend to be physically smaller and have less upper body strength than men, so why is it such a no-no to link femininity to weakness? On one hand I hear women saying that men don't understand how inequality in strength and size fuels feelings of vulnerability around men, yet women seem to not want womanhood or femininity otherwise linked with weakness.

Unfortunately, it's entirely appropriate for women to be concerned about being physically overpowered as it's basic fact that most men are stronger than most women. For the average man, such a concern is less warranted as he's likely to have a more even match when push comes to shove. So when guys disparage one another using words conceptually linked to women it seems less about putting women down and more an inference that what is an appropriate concern for a woman is often not an appropriate concern for man.

OK, I'm going to do one of those comparisons that people hate so much. Before I do, I want to make clear that I am doing this purely because I find it incredibly effective in highlighting the issue in terms that most of us are already familiar with, and not because I in any way think you endorse these views.

Blacks tend to be lower income and have less material wealth than whites, so why is it such a no-no to link blackness to poverty? On one hand I hear blacks saying that whites don't understand how inequality in income and assets fuels feelings of oppression and disparity around whites, yet blacks seem to not want African origins or dark skin otherwise linked with poverty.

Unfortunately, it's entirely appropriate for blacks to be concerned about being economically discriminated against as it's basic fact that most whites are paid more than most blacks. For the average white person, such a concern is less warranted as they're likely to have a more even match when applying for work. So when whites disparage one another using words conceptually linked to blacks it seems less about putting blacks down and more an inference that what is an appropriate concern for a black person is often not an appropriate concern for a white person.

[Phox]

The following is a rationalization that my brain came up with. I know it's not right in spite of there being a little truth to it, but I thought I'd offer it up as an example of a way that patriarchal ideas can manifest. I'm also depositing it here for the sake of dissection.

Women tend to be physically smaller and have less upper body strength than men, so why is it such a no-no to link femininity to weakness? On one hand I hear women saying that men don't understand how inequality in strength and size fuels feelings of vulnerability around men, yet women seem to not want womanhood or femininity otherwise linked with weakness.

Unfortunately, it's entirely appropriate for women to be concerned about being physically overpowered as it's basic fact that most men are stronger than most women. For the average man, such a concern is less warranted as he's likely to have a more even match when push comes to shove. So when guys disparage one another using words conceptually linked to women it seems less about putting women down and more an inference that what is an appropriate concern for a woman is often not an appropriate concern for man.

There are at least two factors here. The first is the very idea that "what is an appropriate concern for women is not for men" is very much "Othering".

The second is demeaning a man by comparing them to women implies that women are inferior to men. This is pretty obvious when men say "Stop being such a girl" or whatever when a fellow man is hesitant to do something that might range from being potentially embarrassing or dangerous to completely illegal and stupid. Very rarely is it explicitly linked with actual feats of physical strength. In those cases, it's more likely that they would say something more like "My grandmother could lift that thing", which is a bit different.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I am actually unconvinced, as I saw the Webster's 1913 citation and found it very odd that there are absolutely no supporting citations other than a quote that is impossible to find elsewhere, nor has any other dictionary ever used that origin. I was hoping you would have something a little more substantive, especially since dictionary editors of that era were notorious for simply making shit up in order to claim to have better/different information than other dictionaries.

Not that it's particularly relevant to modern usage and understanding, but I just find that a bit sketchy.

Which part seems unconvincing?

Pursy can be found in several historical quotes. Pussy as an endearing term can be found in several historical quotes. Pussy as a vulgar insult to a man seems defined in the 1828 and 1913 Websters and most other references I can find either directly source that dictionary, or make statements that appear very similar.

It could be made up. I have not, however, found any other dictionaries or reference material online that disagrees with it (and I originally remembered it from a lecture 20 years ago, but I'd guess the teacher probably got her source from Webster) . Maybe they're all just cribbing from Webster. I will go wander over to the library this weekend and see if I can find any older references.

And yeah, I'm looking for the origin of the word. The argument has been made that the word as vulgar slang for a guy exists because of the misogynistic culture they developed in. IF (and we must assume IF) the "weak man" is actually from 'pursy', rather than 'pussy' than the origin is no more misogynistic than 'niggardly' is racist.

When I think about how 'pussy' gets used in slang...

Pussy can mean vagina, or sex "Baby, I love to eat your pussy". That's not particularly misogynistic, any more than cock or dick.
Pussy can be denigrating to a woman "Look at that pussy that just walked in" and is obviously misogynistic in that usage.
Pussy can mean a weak guy, and that's the bit that I am trying to dig into. Is it "weak guy" because he's like a woman, or is it "weak guy" because he's "pursy"?

IF (and I'm trying to stress that here) the answer is that it does indeed come from pursy... then the word isn't particularly misogynistic except in a case where the usage is reducing the value of the woman to her sexual value, even in today's usage. 

Rat, the problem:

Then: "Pussy" as a term for women, cats, pussy willows, whatever.... meant "soft, fluffy, cuddly, etc."

Today: "Pussy" as an insult means "soft, weak, vagina, etc."

Do you see where there is overlap, regardless of actual origins?

Well, IF the Websters entry is right then "Then" (early 20the century) Pussy meant soft/fluffy/cuddly/cat/rabbit/fur (Saxon) from one root source. It meant 'endearing term for a girl' (French) from another root source and it meant 'weak' ('pursy') from a completely different root source.

Yes, today we might conflate them all together and it makes a good argument for people who want to be careful not to offend women to eschew its usage. However, the 'root' of the issue is if the term came about because of a misogynistic culture that saw women as weak, or if it came about from two completely different sources.

There are people that dislike the word niggardly because it overlaps the slur for a race and negative traits of being stingy or miserly. The word though has nothing, at all, to do with race, it just happens to sound like it. IF Websters is right, then 'pussy' suffers from the same issue.

1. See my post immediately before this one.

2. I think you are getting bogged down in semantics in a big, bad way, and failing to look at the issue holistically.

3. I already explained why I am skeptical of that etymology, and why I was hoping you would offer more substantive citations.

4. As I previously mentioned, whether the current common understanding of the word as a derogatory term has its origin in one root or two, the current association with female genitalia, and how the word developed in that direction, reveals a lot about our culture. Remember, the word "pussy" didn't always mean "vulva", either, but it does now. Information is not found solely in word origin, nor solely in current use, but also in the path it travels on its way from origin to current use.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Oh, and

There are people that dislike the word niggardly because it overlaps the slur for a race and negative traits of being stingy or miserly. The word though has nothing, at all, to do with race, it just happens to sound like it. IF Websters is right, then 'pussy' suffers from the same issue.

5. No, they do not suffer from the same issue regardless of whether Websters 1913 is right, because while "pussy" is widely used both as a derogatory term and as slang for vulva, "niggardly" has never been used to mean "black person" or anything related.

As an aside, another thing I find suspicious about that entry is that it doesn't seem to have survived into later editions.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

P.S. if you are just playing Devil's Advocate and the logical flaws in your posts are the result of just making up arguments for fun, please let me know so I can stop responding, as I will feel pretty jerked around if I find out you've been wasting my time. Especially with it being finals week.