The Deciders

[Anna Mae Bollocks]

Individually? No. He wasn't. But SWM over all are Deciders, which sometimes plays out in the form of entitlement Nigel talked about in the OP.

I don't think "over all" did him fuckall good. I doubt he was sitting in jail with knots and shit on his head going "I'm the color of the big boss man! Yeah!" I don't think he EVER thought stuff like that. If he had, I wouldn't have hung out with him. And guilt by association doesn't cut it for me here.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Yeah. Big difference in Great White Fathers, banksters, etc. and some of the white guys I've known, who might have gotten marginally more consideration from the "powers that be" than the local Black folks, but not enough to keep them from being worked over by the cops or held in jail for weeks on so-called charges like "suspicion". Kind of a broad brush.

Stella. It's a broad fucking statement from a broad fucking sociological perspective. It's meant to be applied to a broader cultural view. It's not meant to be applied to individuals or refuted with fucking PERSONAL ANECDOTES and I wish you would stop doing that.

[Salty]

Individually? No. He wasn't. But SWM over all are Deciders, which sometimes plays out in the form of entitlement Nigel talked about in the OP.

I don't think "over all" did him fuckall good. I doubt he was sitting in jail with knots and shit on his head going "I'm the color of the big boss man! Yeah!" I don't think he EVER thought stuff like that. If he had, I wouldn't have hung out with him. And guilt by association doesn't cut it for me here.

Are you trying to say white men are at an equal level of subjugation by The Man™. If so, how does your single anecdote supply evidence for that position?

I don think anyone is suggesting that white men somehow don't get fucked over. But the overwhelming power white men have in western culture is, you know I stayed out of these threads for a reason. Never mind.

Actually no.

Should there be a term for non trans people? Sure. Should it be used as a slur because people get caught up in the idea that they've been (hur hur) getting the shaft for a loooong time and man it feels good to be vindicated? No.

Clearly, many of these ideas are new to many white men who aren't fully aware of those issues. But we can't get anywhere without them. So yeah there's difficulty in getting lines of communication together so some real progress can be made. And that's hard, often unpleasant work. For both sides. Which, you know, really shouldn't be arguing amongst themselves because there is an actual, real, bona fide Enemy out there.

Which I think Roger tried to illustrate with that link.

YET, these conversations are crucial as they address and expose certain gaps in communication for which we have no bridges. Yet.

[Anna Mae Bollocks]

Yeah. Big difference in Great White Fathers, banksters, etc. and some of the white guys I've known, who might have gotten marginally more consideration from the "powers that be" than the local Black folks, but not enough to keep them from being worked over by the cops or held in jail for weeks on so-called charges like "suspicion". Kind of a broad brush.

Stella. It's a broad fucking statement from a broad fucking sociological perspective. It's meant to be applied to a broader cultural view. It's not meant to be applied to individuals or refuted with fucking PERSONAL ANECDOTES and I wish you would stop doing that.

Stepping out of this thread, then. I don't do "white/black/whatever guys are this way (even though a lot of them aren't)" well.

[Salty]

Yeah. Big difference in Great White Fathers, banksters, etc. and some of the white guys I've known, who might have gotten marginally more consideration from the "powers that be" than the local Black folks, but not enough to keep them from being worked over by the cops or held in jail for weeks on so-called charges like "suspicion". Kind of a broad brush.

Stella. It's a broad fucking statement from a broad fucking sociological perspective. It's meant to be applied to a broader cultural view. It's not meant to be applied to individuals or refuted with fucking PERSONAL ANECDOTES and I wish you would stop doing that.

Stepping out of this thread, then. I don't do "white/black/whatever guys are this way (even though a lot of them aren't)" well.

Well no one here, aside from you, is talking about that. I think you're having a wholly different conversation.

To begin: anecdotal exceptions to not prove or disprove dick.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Yeah. Big difference in Great White Fathers, banksters, etc. and some of the white guys I've known, who might have gotten marginally more consideration from the "powers that be" than the local Black folks, but not enough to keep them from being worked over by the cops or held in jail for weeks on so-called charges like "suspicion". Kind of a broad brush.

Stella. It's a broad fucking statement from a broad fucking sociological perspective. It's meant to be applied to a broader cultural view. It's not meant to be applied to individuals or refuted with fucking PERSONAL ANECDOTES and I wish you would stop doing that.

Stepping out of this thread, then. I don't do "white/black/whatever guys are this way (even though a lot of them aren't)" well.

That's not what this thread is about, and it's not what ANY sociological or anthropological discussions are about. They're about trends within cultures. Black guys may, indeed, tend to be a certain way within a certain culture. So may white guys or women or Asians or people with freckles, because of societal norms. When you're addressing sociological issues such as race or gender inequity, you HAVE to use a broad brush, or you can't address anything at all.

Overall in Western cultures, white guys are in charge. Saying we can't speak to that because it's a "broad brush" is like saying we can't speak to the fact that Arab men are in charge in Saudi Arabia, that Chinese men are in charge in China, or that Nazis were in charge in Nazi Germany. The issue still exists, and the only way to address it is in generalizations because we're talking about a culture and its norms and pressures, not about individuals.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

In other words, if my attempts at e-prime in the OP didn't make it clear, the fact that the cultural trend reinforces certain behavior doesn't automatically make it true of all white guys, and the whole point of this thread and others like it is to get people to think about whether that cultural norm is affecting them, and, if it is, to encourage them to opt out of it. But you can't opt out of behavior you aren't consciously aware of.

[tyrannosaurus vex]

Privilege can actually be measured, in my experience. The easiest way to measure it is by how well dressed you have to be when you walk into a building with a turnstile and a guard.

White guy: Be clean, and wear clean clothes. Try not to be carrying a firearm. As a general rule, the more extreme your hairstyle is, the more expensive your shirt should be. Follow these rules, and nobody will ask who you are or where you're going.

Black guy: Be very clean. No facial hair. Wear a sport coat and an expensive shirt. No piercings. SHINY SHOES. Failure to meet any of these qualifications will earn you at least a short interrogation. Crazy hair is only permissible if you're famous - otherwise you will not be allowed, no matter how many forms of ID you show, unless the guard can call your destination and make sure you're OK.

White woman: Same rules as white man, except add 100% to the cost of your outfit. Also you will be asked where you're going. Usually this is not an indication of suspicion, but an indication that the guard assumes you need help. Women are a little air headed and get lost easily.

Black woman: Same rules as white woman, but add another 25-50% of your to the cost of your clothes. And you'll be asked for your destination AND your identity. You won't have too much more trouble than that, because the guard fears that you'll have one of those "black woman attitudes" if you get treated like a black man.

Asian man/woman: Same as white man/woman, unless you look poor. Then apply rules for black man/woman.

Native American man/woman: Uhh, we don't have firewater here, red man.

[Juana]

Non-seq, there, Vex.

[tyrannosaurus vex]

Non-Seq is my middle name.

[Salty]

I think this can go here, it's a topic that's mightily spread out and, clearly, confusing for many of us.

The crux of this, as I see it:

It's pointless to say these terms are useless. It's pointless to say white men get fucked too. While it's very impotent to have these conversations it is not the goal.

The attempt to bridge the gap between what men who never have to worry about their sexuality THINK about what women experience daily is important, but only as a means of moving forward with The Plan. And like political agnoism, it's probably a good idea (and one which will combat fatigue) to assume a certain amount of conflict in these discussions and focus on that aspect.

Example I've posted before:
Drag queen complains about tranny not "passing" and that "If you can't make that shit look good you shouldn't even bother."

The only course of action is to bring this error in self-interest and understanding to light. You know what happens when you call out a drag queen for acting in a way that's hurtful? *shudder* It's NOT pleasant. And yet...it must be done. MUST be done. And me mocking some drag queen, which given the drag queen in question, I can handle, probably won't have an over effect.

Maybe a long term one. One mistake we shouldn't make is assuming that just because you put things in a logical sequence, and someone soaks that information in their brain meat, does not translate into full understanding. These are large, pervasive, and another fancy word that means big and complicated issues.

ALSO: We are still developing as humans, as a whole. We are likely not to have all the tools/perspective/language we need to get to where we want to go when we are in truly strange territory.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Stella, I'm sorry for being so bitchy. I think you're right and I'm overextended. I really need to mellow out.

[P3nT4gR4m]

If there's no way in hell I can possibly understand your thing then why in fuck have you dedicated your existence to trying to explain it to me?

Oh wait, that's right you're not trying to explain, you're just impotently bitching and whining? fine. Carry on.

[tyrannosaurus vex]

(White) men cannot understand, but our help is needed. We have an obligation to help, partly because we recognize there is a problem and partly because we are the ones "in charge," so we are the only ones who can change things. At least, without a revolution. But we cannot be in charge of what needs to be done, and since we do not understand what it is like to be oppressed we cannot offer advice on what might mitigate that oppression if our advice has anything to do with changing the opinions or behaviors of the oppressed. We can only be of assistance in doing it. We are like lions, if a lion could be hired to guide a safari through lion territory.

[P3nT4gR4m]

Yeah, that's what I thought. Guess I'll just chew on this antelope leg and watch from the sidelines with detached amusement