Dear Nigel, Garbo, Signora, and Pixie...Hear me out for just a second

Started by The Good Reverend Roger, August 21, 2012, 11:12:51 PM

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The Good Reverend Roger

August 21, 2012, 11:12:51 PM
I've been listening so loud my throat is getting raw.  No, wait, that means I haven't been listening, I've been shouting.  So I went back through and listened some.  I'd like to dispense with showing my raw red ass to everyone, and I'd like to suggest to many people here that they pull up their pants, because my ass is WAY redder than yours.  Anyway...

Let me restate the case made, to see if I understand it.

1.  Men can sympathize with, but not actually understand, what being a woman is all about, expecially in a patriarchal society.

2.  Men tend to answer concerns with suggestions on how to fix the situation.

3.  You would appreciate our support, not endless suggestions on how to fix what is - at present - a basically unfixable predicament.

Before I go any further, do I have the basics straight?
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

"Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

Juana

#1
August 21, 2012, 11:18:48 PM
1. Correct.
2. IME, yes. Some of which is very good. Some of which is not.
3. Yes and no. Support - absolutely. Endless suggestions - in the context of "how do we fix this? how can we reach our audience?" are welcome. But I think it is fixable (it's a lot better now than it was fifty years ago, after all, and I think we can keep making it better!). It's just going to take a lot of work.
"I dispose of obsolete meat machines.  Not because I hate them (I do) and not because they deserve it (they do), but because they are in the way and those older ones don't meet emissions codes.  They emit too much.  You don't like them and I don't like them, so spare me the hysteria."

Juana

#2
August 21, 2012, 11:19:41 PM
So, pretty much yeah, I think you have the basics right.
"I dispose of obsolete meat machines.  Not because I hate them (I do) and not because they deserve it (they do), but because they are in the way and those older ones don't meet emissions codes.  They emit too much.  You don't like them and I don't like them, so spare me the hysteria."

The Good Reverend Roger

#3
August 21, 2012, 11:24:55 PM
Quote from: Secret Agent GARBO on August 21, 2012, 11:18:48 PM
1. Correct.
2. IME, yes. Some of which is very good. Some of which is not.
3. Yes and no. Support - absolutely. Endless suggestions - in the context of "how do we fix this? how can we reach our audience?" are welcome. But I think it is fixable (it's a lot better now than it was fifty years ago, after all, and I think we can keep making it better!). It's just going to take a lot of work.

Okay, so enlighten me here, for I am a spag:  How would I show support in a manner that isn't condescending, and has some sort of merit?  I've asked this once, and received an answer I was incapable of understanding.  I am not saying that Nigel's answer wasn't a good one, just that I didn't understand it.

(Nigel's answer:  http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php/topic,33052.90/msg,1201068.html )

I don't understand it, because I wasn't shown a whole lot of support when I came home.  I was offered sympathy by friends and family that I wasn't really interested in for what I suspect is the exact same reason that nobody here wants cheerleading1, and I was offered "counseling" (read:  have some pills) by the government.

So what am I to do?




1  That is to say, people with no common frame of reference trying to impose solutions, consolation, or advice on a situation that they can't understand.  I know this is sort of hovering around Nigel's answer, but I can't quite seem to zero in on it.




" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

"Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

The Good Reverend Roger

#4
August 21, 2012, 11:29:21 PM
Please note that in about 10 minutes I have to go to dinner with some people I'd love to feed through the grindy choppy burny thing, but rest assured I will be returning to this thread the moment I come back.
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

"Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

Salty

#5
August 21, 2012, 11:31:03 PM
I think of it, somewhat, like this:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7c/Yin_and_Yang.svg


Just because you have elements of the other doesn't mean that's what you are. And it takes a certain finesse in keeping a momentum where pressure goes back and forth.

One of those sides is supposed to be male and the other female. Passive and active. To deal with this stuff I think men have to yeild when the situation demands it, be more passive than "natural". And the same can be said for women. In fact, it's easy to think that, to balance the past, women need to be OVERLY aggressive for balance to happen.

I don't think that's right. I think everyone who gives a damn about this has to work together, move toward an amicable middle and CRUSH THE OPPOSITION WITH FIRE.

Or something like that.
The world is a car and you're the crash test dummy.

The Good Reverend Roger

#6
August 21, 2012, 11:46:54 PM
Quote from: Alty on August 21, 2012, 11:31:03 PM


I don't think that's right. I think everyone who gives a damn about this has to work together, move toward an amicable middle and CRUSH THE OPPOSITION WITH FIRE.

Or something like that.

You have to remember that while I am not stupid, I am a little dense.  I keep hearing variations on the above, but I don't know what it means.  Work together?  Great.  But in the face of chaos, inexperience is the enemy.  I want to work together, but I have no idea what to DO to work together.  There's no task list.

So we come back around to the male "find a fix" predicament.  I know I'm doin' it wrong, but I don't know why.
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

"Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

Salty

#7
August 21, 2012, 11:51:29 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on August 21, 2012, 11:46:54 PM
Quote from: Alty on August 21, 2012, 11:31:03 PM


I don't think that's right. I think everyone who gives a damn about this has to work together, move toward an amicable middle and CRUSH THE OPPOSITION WITH FIRE.

Or something like that.

You have to remember that while I am not stupid, I am a little dense.  I keep hearing variations on the above, but I don't know what it means.  Work together?  Great.  But in the face of chaos, inexperience is the enemy.  I want to work together, but I have no idea what to DO to work together.  There's no task list.

So we come back around to the male "find a fix" predicament.  I know I'm doin' it wrong, but I don't know why.

Two things:

1. Talking about this, raising awareness, and becoming familiar with the details helps this. Most of these problem exist not because of some evil group of white men, but through ignorance of the issues and their complexity. You being more aware of where you stand, and being able to stand there solidly so you can move in to correct other's mistakes (through talking) is how you help fix it.

2. I don't think anyone knows exactly what will solve this. We just try out best. Just look at how many threads, and much heat, this topic has brought about. We fix it by discovering problems unknown to us and putting our heads together to COME UP WITH some kind of solution.

It's a slow, grinding, painful process all around. And it should be.
The world is a car and you're the crash test dummy.

The Good Reverend Roger

#8
August 21, 2012, 11:57:43 PM
Quote from: Alty on August 21, 2012, 11:51:29 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on August 21, 2012, 11:46:54 PM
Quote from: Alty on August 21, 2012, 11:31:03 PM


I don't think that's right. I think everyone who gives a damn about this has to work together, move toward an amicable middle and CRUSH THE OPPOSITION WITH FIRE.

Or something like that.

You have to remember that while I am not stupid, I am a little dense.  I keep hearing variations on the above, but I don't know what it means.  Work together?  Great.  But in the face of chaos, inexperience is the enemy.  I want to work together, but I have no idea what to DO to work together.  There's no task list.

So we come back around to the male "find a fix" predicament.  I know I'm doin' it wrong, but I don't know why.

Two things:

1. Talking about this, raising awareness, and becoming familiar with the details helps this. Most of these problem exist not because of some evil group of white men, but through ignorance of the issues and their complexity. You being more aware of where you stand, and being able to stand there solidly so you can move in to correct other's mistakes (through talking) is how you help fix it.

2. I don't think anyone knows exactly what will solve this. We just try out best. Just look at how many threads, and much heat, this topic has brought about. We fix it by discovering problems unknown to us and putting our heads together to COME UP WITH some kind of solution.

It's a slow, grinding, painful process all around. And it should be.

I have no issue with the first one.  As I have stated, I try very hard not to tolerate bullshit in my immediate vicinity.

But the second one, Alty...I am at sea.  I don't even understand the problem properly, so how can I contribute to a solution? 
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

"Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

Juana

#9
August 22, 2012, 12:02:56 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on August 21, 2012, 11:24:55 PM
Quote from: Secret Agent GARBO on August 21, 2012, 11:18:48 PM
1. Correct.
2. IME, yes. Some of which is very good. Some of which is not.
3. Yes and no. Support - absolutely. Endless suggestions - in the context of "how do we fix this? how can we reach our audience?" are welcome. But I think it is fixable (it's a lot better now than it was fifty years ago, after all, and I think we can keep making it better!). It's just going to take a lot of work.

Okay, so enlighten me here, for I am a spag:  How would I show support in a manner that isn't condescending, and has some sort of merit?  I've asked this once, and received an answer I was incapable of understanding.  I am not saying that Nigel's answer wasn't a good one, just that I didn't understand it.

(Nigel's answer:  http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php/topic,33052.90/msg,1201068.html )

I don't understand it, because I wasn't shown a whole lot of support when I came home.  I was offered sympathy by friends and family that I wasn't really interested in for what I suspect is the exact same reason that nobody here wants cheerleading1, and I was offered "counseling" (read:  have some pills) by the government.

So what am I to do?




1  That is to say, people with no common frame of reference trying to impose solutions, consolation, or advice on a situation that they can't understand.  I know this is sort of hovering around Nigel's answer, but I can't quite seem to zero in on it.
That's entirely dependent on the context (supporting someone you know pretty well will be different than offering support to someone you don't, plus the context of whatever event it is causing you to want to offer your support), BUT I would venture to say things like "I can understand that"/"that's understandable" (both imply empathy rather than jacking the experience, although if it IS something you have experience with, I think you'd be okay to share that if you feel comfortable doing so) and asking something like "is there anything I can do?" (indicates that you understand that s/he may not actually want help or that you know they might want something specific, aka you want to help but are not forcing them to accept it, which is, in itself, incredibly helpful).

I have to take off for a little bit, but I'll be back and finish my answer.
"I dispose of obsolete meat machines.  Not because I hate them (I do) and not because they deserve it (they do), but because they are in the way and those older ones don't meet emissions codes.  They emit too much.  You don't like them and I don't like them, so spare me the hysteria."

Salty

#10
August 22, 2012, 12:03:52 AM
Recognizing you're lost as sea at all is a step forward in finding the shore.

We're all lost at sea. So many feminists, or what have you, are disenfranchised. Gays don't care or reinforce hideous stereotypes. Women of all kinds undermine the efforts that benefit them. Sympathetic, willing to help men get flustered when they can't apply a fix to the problem.

The reason this thing has taken so long is because we are all out there trying to tread water.
The world is a car and you're the crash test dummy.

LMNO

#11
August 22, 2012, 12:06:11 AM
Roger, I don't have enough time right now, but I hear what you're saying, and I almost understand. In a way. Of course. But I have some ideas, and I want to talk about them. Maybe tomorrow.

The Good Reverend Roger

#12
August 22, 2012, 12:08:23 AM
Quote from: Secret Agent GARBO on August 22, 2012, 12:02:56 AM

That's entirely dependent on the context (supporting someone you know pretty well will be different than offering support to someone you don't, plus the context of whatever event it is causing you to want to offer your support), BUT I would venture to say things like "I can understand that"/"that's understandable" (both imply empathy rather than jacking the experience, although if it IS something you have experience with, I think you'd be okay to share that if you feel comfortable doing so) and asking something like "is there anything I can do?" (indicates that you understand that s/he may not actually want help or that you know they might want something specific, aka you want to help but are not forcing them to accept it, which is, in itself, incredibly helpful).

I'm not sure I can force anyone to accept anything.  I'm reasonably certain - though I may very well be wrong - that I haven't tried.  At least recently.

Also, the problem is that I CAN'T "understand that".  Believe me when I say that I am not being pissy here.  I am convinced merely by the level of frustration on both sides that men DON'T understand what women deal with.

Quote
I have to take off for a little bit, but I'll be back and finish my answer.

Okay.  Because I'm still sorta lost, here.
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

"Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

The Good Reverend Roger

#13
August 22, 2012, 12:08:50 AM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on August 22, 2012, 12:06:11 AM
Roger, I don't have enough time right now, but I hear what you're saying, and I almost understand. In a way. Of course. But I have some ideas, and I want to talk about them. Maybe tomorrow.

I gotta go, too.  I'll be on at the same time tomorrow.
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

"Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

The Good Reverend Roger

#14
August 22, 2012, 12:09:13 AM
Quote from: Alty on August 22, 2012, 12:03:52 AM
Recognizing you're lost as sea at all is a step forward in finding the shore.

We're all lost at sea. So many feminists, or what have you, are disenfranchised. Gays don't care or reinforce hideous stereotypes. Women of all kinds undermine the efforts that benefit them. Sympathetic, willing to help men get flustered when they can't apply a fix to the problem.

The reason this thing has taken so long is because we are all out there trying to tread water.

My point exactly. 
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

"Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.
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