How most men, even good caring men, have no clue what women go through

[Luna]

You're missing the point gloriously, Epi.

Situation:  Woman is sitting on a bus/train, obviously engaged in reading a book.  Man sits down next to her, even though the rest of the bus/train is all but empty, and interrupts her reading to strike up a conversation.

What has happened, here, regardless of the end result he is trying to achieve (often to get into her pants), is that he has ranked what HE wants (conversation, end result undetermined, with her) as more important than what SHE wants (quiet enjoyment of her book).

This is rude.

If she makes the point that she wishes to be left alone, she does not deserve to be harassed.  She does not deserve to be called a "frigid bitch" under the guy's breath, or to hear, "I just wanted to TALK."  She does not deserve to be made afraid that he is going to follow her off the bus/train and continue to attempt to force his attention upon her.  She deserves a, "sorry, didn't mean to intrude," and for him to move the hell away from her.

If people can't come to an agreement up to THAT point, then I'm thinking the conversation is FUBAR.

I agree with all of that. But it looks like you're making completely different points than what Nigel said in what I quoted, except maybe the rudeness of interrupting a person reading, which I definitely misread if that's what Nigel meant (I'll wait for her word on that, and apologize in advance if that's the case). She asked a question and I answered it, and she talked about assuming a man wants sex, and I responded to that.

The whole point of the original article...  A woman being approached by a stranger, particularly in a place where she can't immediately escape, such as public transportation, thanks to having to have dealt with this crap multiple times, is going to assume he's just going to make unwanted advances... particularly because he has ALREADY made an unwanted demand on her attention.

Watch people, sometimes.  If they are approaching a stranger in a public place, they want something.  A cigarette, a light, change for the bus...  a phone number.

[Anna Mae Bollocks]

You're missing the point gloriously, Epi.

Situation:  Woman is sitting on a bus/train, obviously engaged in reading a book.  Man sits down next to her, even though the rest of the bus/train is all but empty, and interrupts her reading to strike up a conversation.

What has happened, here, regardless of the end result he is trying to achieve (often to get into her pants), is that he has ranked what HE wants (conversation, end result undetermined, with her) as more important than what SHE wants (quiet enjoyment of her book).

This is rude.

If she makes the point that she wishes to be left alone, she does not deserve to be harassed.  She does not deserve to be called a "frigid bitch" under the guy's breath, or to hear, "I just wanted to TALK."  She does not deserve to be made afraid that he is going to follow her off the bus/train and continue to attempt to force his attention upon her.  She deserves a, "sorry, didn't mean to intrude," and for him to move the hell away from her.

If people can't come to an agreement up to THAT point, then I'm thinking the conversation is FUBAR.

I agree with all of that. But it looks like you're making completely different points than what Nigel said in what I quoted, except maybe the rudeness of interrupting a person reading, which I definitely misread if that's what Nigel meant (I'll wait for her word on that, and apologize in advance if that's the case). She asked a question and I answered it, and she talked about assuming a man wants sex, and I responded to that.

The whole point of the original article...  A woman being approached by a stranger, particularly in a place where she can't immediately escape, such as public transportation, thanks to having to have dealt with this crap multiple times, is going to assume he's just going to make unwanted advances... particularly because he has ALREADY made an unwanted demand on her attention.

Watch people, sometimes.  If they are approaching a stranger in a public place, they want something.  A cigarette, a light, change for the bus...  a phone number.

Yes. In trains, bus stations, etc. people tend to be in "don't fuck with me" bubbles. It's an "I'll leave you alone if you leave me alone" thing. If you just want a light or some info, your best opener is "Excuse me...". Your whole demeanor should say "I am inoffensive and I'll go away soon". It's NOT a place to "meet people".

Women tend to sit with other women when they can, too, so people DON'T fuck with them. The "safety in numbers" thing.

[Epimetheus]

The whole point of the original article...  A woman being approached by a stranger, particularly in a place where she can't immediately escape, such as public transportation, thanks to having to have dealt with this crap multiple times, is going to assume he's just going to make unwanted advances... particularly because he has ALREADY made an unwanted demand on her attention.

Maybe unwanted, but from the stranger's point of view, merely uninvited. All first attempts to meet someone are uninvited. That's the point. You don't know if it's wanted until you try (excepting obvious body language/ expression).
Again, I was responding specifically to what Nigel said/asked. I see the problems with the men's behaviors in the article and I would have to be an idiot not to.

I do get a hunch I'm missing something but for the life of me, looking thoroughly and repeatedly, I can't see what it is. So forgive me if I require some persistence :/

Yes. In trains, bus stations, etc. people tend to be in "don't fuck with me" bubbles. It's an "I'll leave you alone if you leave me alone" thing. If you just want a light or some info, your best opener is "Excuse me...". Your whole demeanor should say "I am inoffensive and I'll go away soon". It's NOT a place to "meet people".

Weird...every time I rode the bus I was hoping someone would spark up conversation with me. Do I need therapy?

[Luna]

Let's try this...

Swiping this from a totally different thread, this is JUST as unacceptable behavoir...

No one will ever know what it's like to be aggressively hit on by a tanked guidette at 10PM on Saturday while trying to pick up a fucking pizza.  I just wanted my damn food, and not have to weather her lewd suggestions that I "make it happen" from this spray tanned gucci skinned duckfacer.  It is not my fault that she got booted from all the "nice" restaurants in her excessively imbibed attempts to mate, and thinks that an unshaven bespectacled 30 year old in a warsaw pact coat looks like a reasonable idea.

It is, however, a fuckload less frightening for Richter to be aggressively hit on by this bimbo than it would be for ME, had it been me picking up my pizza, to be hit on by some drunk man.

While Richter might, reasonably, been concerned that she'd follow him home and fling herself at door, I promise you, whatever *I* would be worried about concerning a drunk following ME out into the parking lot is a hell of a lot scarier.

What we're trying to get across here... Well, while I can't say I speak for all of the women here, and can't say we've ALL  had to deal with this, so, what *I* am trying to get across, here, is that an uninvited contact can, for a woman, be fucking scary, regardless of the intent, because of the bullshit assholes who came before said contact.

[Epimetheus]

Let's try this...

Swiping this from a totally different thread, this is JUST as unacceptable behavoir...

No one will ever know what it's like to be aggressively hit on by a tanked guidette at 10PM on Saturday while trying to pick up a fucking pizza.  I just wanted my damn food, and not have to weather her lewd suggestions that I "make it happen" from this spray tanned gucci skinned duckfacer.  It is not my fault that she got booted from all the "nice" restaurants in her excessively imbibed attempts to mate, and thinks that an unshaven bespectacled 30 year old in a warsaw pact coat looks like a reasonable idea.

It is, however, a fuckload less frightening for Richter to be aggressively hit on by this bimbo than it would be for ME, had it been me picking up my pizza, to be hit on by some drunk man.

While Richter might, reasonably, been concerned that she'd follow him home and fling herself at door, I promise you, whatever *I* would be worried about concerning a drunk following ME out into the parking lot is a hell of a lot scarier.

What we're trying to get across here... Well, while I can't say I speak for all of the women here, and can't say we've ALL  had to deal with this, so, what *I* am trying to get across, here, is that an uninvited contact can, for a woman, be fucking scary, regardless of the intent, because of the bullshit assholes who came before said contact.

Makes sense. Then I have a question. In the case that a man was merely interested in meeting another human being, as I claim to be, how would he have to act in order for there to be any consideration of actually befriending him? Or is that out the window, period?

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Send us a postcard.

I didn't say I was leaving PD.  I said I was leaving anything resembling an activist or involved role in feminism outside of my home and my workplace.

But fuck you anyway.

Will you stop with this? It basically comes across as "if those two people won't play the way I want them to play, then I'm not playing with anyone".

Also, I replied to your post, first message on this page. I didn't quote, just talked about some of the points you raised.

[Luna]

Let's try this...

Swiping this from a totally different thread, this is JUST as unacceptable behavoir...

No one will ever know what it's like to be aggressively hit on by a tanked guidette at 10PM on Saturday while trying to pick up a fucking pizza.  I just wanted my damn food, and not have to weather her lewd suggestions that I "make it happen" from this spray tanned gucci skinned duckfacer.  It is not my fault that she got booted from all the "nice" restaurants in her excessively imbibed attempts to mate, and thinks that an unshaven bespectacled 30 year old in a warsaw pact coat looks like a reasonable idea.

It is, however, a fuckload less frightening for Richter to be aggressively hit on by this bimbo than it would be for ME, had it been me picking up my pizza, to be hit on by some drunk man.

While Richter might, reasonably, been concerned that she'd follow him home and fling herself at door, I promise you, whatever *I* would be worried about concerning a drunk following ME out into the parking lot is a hell of a lot scarier.

What we're trying to get across here... Well, while I can't say I speak for all of the women here, and can't say we've ALL  had to deal with this, so, what *I* am trying to get across, here, is that an uninvited contact can, for a woman, be fucking scary, regardless of the intent, because of the bullshit assholes who came before said contact.

Makes sense. Then I have a question. In the case that a man was merely interested in meeting another human being, as I claim to be, how would he have to act in order for there to be any consideration of actually befriending him? Or is that out the window, period?

In what situation?  Makes all the difference in the world.

[Freeky]

Cool beans

Even if you HAD been trying to say that, that sentiment would fall so far outside my (admittedly very limited) frame of reference for you that I would have erroneously interpreted it the other way.

[Anna Mae Bollocks]

Let's try this...

Swiping this from a totally different thread, this is JUST as unacceptable behavoir...

No one will ever know what it's like to be aggressively hit on by a tanked guidette at 10PM on Saturday while trying to pick up a fucking pizza.  I just wanted my damn food, and not have to weather her lewd suggestions that I "make it happen" from this spray tanned gucci skinned duckfacer.  It is not my fault that she got booted from all the "nice" restaurants in her excessively imbibed attempts to mate, and thinks that an unshaven bespectacled 30 year old in a warsaw pact coat looks like a reasonable idea.

It is, however, a fuckload less frightening for Richter to be aggressively hit on by this bimbo than it would be for ME, had it been me picking up my pizza, to be hit on by some drunk man.

While Richter might, reasonably, been concerned that she'd follow him home and fling herself at door, I promise you, whatever *I* would be worried about concerning a drunk following ME out into the parking lot is a hell of a lot scarier.

What we're trying to get across here... Well, while I can't say I speak for all of the women here, and can't say we've ALL  had to deal with this, so, what *I* am trying to get across, here, is that an uninvited contact can, for a woman, be fucking scary, regardless of the intent, because of the bullshit assholes who came before said contact.

Makes sense. Then I have a question. In the case that a man was merely interested in meeting another human being, as I claim to be, how would he have to act in order for there to be any consideration of actually befriending him? Or is that out the window, period?

Do it in a social milieu - a club, a party, facebook, someplace people go with the INTENT of socializing. Not public transportation.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Send us a postcard.

I didn't say I was leaving PD.  I said I was leaving anything resembling an activist or involved role in feminism outside of my home and my workplace.

But fuck you anyway.

Will you stop with this? It basically comes across as "if those two people won't play the way I want them to play, then I'm not playing with anyone".

Also, I replied to your post, first message on this page. I didn't quote, just talked about some of the points you raised.

Here's my problem, Nigel:  I consider PD to be a collection of the best people I know.  If they think I must be marginalized to take part, then what are the odds that anyone else will be any different?

I realize that it looks like I am overreacting.  I probably am.  However, this shit has been bugging me since the first blow up, back on the 19th or 20th of last month, and now we're back on it, and the scabs have been torn off.

I do appreciate your response, and I said so in the thread in which I was ranting.

What I don't appreciate is that the two people who told me that I must be subordinate have blown it off completely.  Is it unreasonable to be this pissed off?  Probably, and I'll probably be over it in an hour or so...But right now, I AM feeling incredibly bent out of shape, as two people I respect and admire on most issues have decided that my concerns are not valid enough to address on this issue.  I was talked around, the same way you were this morning.  I don't consider that acceptable behavior for myself, and I don't see the need to tolerate it from others. 

But yeah, you're right, and I'll stop.  It IS a bad place to stop, though.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Let's try this...

Swiping this from a totally different thread, this is JUST as unacceptable behavoir...

No one will ever know what it's like to be aggressively hit on by a tanked guidette at 10PM on Saturday while trying to pick up a fucking pizza.  I just wanted my damn food, and not have to weather her lewd suggestions that I "make it happen" from this spray tanned gucci skinned duckfacer.  It is not my fault that she got booted from all the "nice" restaurants in her excessively imbibed attempts to mate, and thinks that an unshaven bespectacled 30 year old in a warsaw pact coat looks like a reasonable idea.

It is, however, a fuckload less frightening for Richter to be aggressively hit on by this bimbo than it would be for ME, had it been me picking up my pizza, to be hit on by some drunk man.

While Richter might, reasonably, been concerned that she'd follow him home and fling herself at door, I promise you, whatever *I* would be worried about concerning a drunk following ME out into the parking lot is a hell of a lot scarier.

What we're trying to get across here... Well, while I can't say I speak for all of the women here, and can't say we've ALL  had to deal with this, so, what *I* am trying to get across, here, is that an uninvited contact can, for a woman, be fucking scary, regardless of the intent, because of the bullshit assholes who came before said contact.

Makes sense. Then I have a question. In the case that a man was merely interested in meeting another human being, as I claim to be, how would he have to act in order for there to be any consideration of actually befriending him? Or is that out the window, period?

You are putting your desire to make friends with strangers on the bus ahead of other people's desire and right to not be pestered on their morning commute. That's either creepy, or retarded, take your pick.

Join some clubs, find some activity groups if you want to make friends. Go to parties. Don't try to make friends with strangers on the bus. You know who wants to make friends with strangers on the bus? Retarded people. Think about it.

I already mentioned exceptions to this. If you see the same person over and over again on the bus, and they start to greet you, then shit, strike up a conversation.

It's not wrong to hope for strangers to strike up conversation on the bus; note that Stella said "people tend to be in "don't fuck with me" bubbles." "Tend to be in" is not "are always in". But if you are seriously so socially hard up that you're putting a lot of hope into meeting people on a bus ride, you REALLY need to find some social outlets.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Send us a postcard.

I didn't say I was leaving PD.  I said I was leaving anything resembling an activist or involved role in feminism outside of my home and my workplace.

But fuck you anyway.

Will you stop with this? It basically comes across as "if those two people won't play the way I want them to play, then I'm not playing with anyone".

Also, I replied to your post, first message on this page. I didn't quote, just talked about some of the points you raised.

Here's my problem, Nigel:  I consider PD to be a collection of the best people I know.  If they think I must be marginalized to take part, then what are the odds that anyone else will be any different?

I realize that it looks like I am overreacting.  I probably am.  However, this shit has been bugging me since the first blow up, back on the 19th or 20th of last month, and now we're back on it, and the scabs have been torn off.

I do appreciate your response, and I said so in the thread in which I was ranting.

What I don't appreciate is that the two people who told me that I must be subordinate have blown it off completely.  Is it unreasonable to be this pissed off?  Probably, and I'll probably be over it in an hour or so...But right now, I AM feeling incredibly bent out of shape, as two people I respect and admire on most issues have decided that my concerns are not valid enough to address on this issue.  I was talked around, the same way you were this morning.  I don't consider that acceptable behavior for myself, and I don't see the need to tolerate it from others. 

But yeah, you're right, and I'll stop.  It IS a bad place to stop, though.

Like I said to ECH in PM, if it's a couple of specific people you're pissed at, call them out for their specific behavior or lack of acknowledgement. When you don't, it has the effect, from my perspective, of lumping us all together under a "You People", and then I feel like my contributions are being dismissed along with theirs. Which, to be honest, hurts my feelings.

[Epimetheus]

AMB and Nigel, thank you, I get it now. And Luna, I don't think I need to inquire further, thanks.

[Faust]

Last week on the bus crazy guy with shaved head who talks to himself started asking me about apple for some reason, we had a long chat about them. I'd never bemoan a random person talking to me on the bus, there are some desperately lonely people in this city.

[The Wizard Joseph]

Last week on the bus crazy guy with shaved head who talks to himself started asking me about apple for some reason, we had a long chat about them. I'd never bemoan a random person talking to me on the bus, there are some desperately lonely people in this city.

You sir are a saint.