How most men, even good caring men, have no clue what women go through

[The Good Reverend Roger]

What the fuck does that even mean, Alty? That there's a dominant group is straight up fact, Alty.

Let's just reframe this.  I'm going to be more blatant, but just to show you what it comes across as...

"You People are part of the dominant group.  You People are therefore either tyrants or rapists, or potential tyrants or rapists."

If that's really how you see all CIS/straight guys, then you're being part of the problem.  Either we are what we DO, or we are what we are born as...And if you believe the latter, then there is no difference in your thought processes from those of Pat Robertson.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Also, if I'm stuck being a bad guy¹ in the eyes of my friends, based on accidents of my birth, then what the fuck am I supposed to do?

I'm getting more than a little tired of this constant shit.  I'm tired of hearing about this privilege shit, I'm tired of being told that I'm automatically suspect because of my skin color, my identity, my gender, and my orientation.

I have done nothing to any of you.  I am not responsible for 10,000 years of patriarchy.  I am responsible for ME and MY actions, and if you can't see that, then we have nothing to talk about.




¹  Every member of an oppressive class must themselves be oppressive, either actively or passively, right?

[AFK]

Also, if I'm stuck being a bad guy¹ in the eyes of my friends, based on accidents of my birth, then what the fuck am I supposed to do?

I'm getting more than a little tired of this constant shit.  I'm tired of hearing about this privilege shit, I'm tired of being told that I'm automatically suspect because of my skin color, my identity, my gender, and my orientation.

I have done nothing to any of you.  I am not responsible for 10,000 years of patriarchy.  I am responsible for ME and MY actions, and if you can't see that, then we have nothing to talk about.




¹  Every member of an oppressive class must themselves be oppressive, either actively or passively, right?

All of this.

[Juana]

I think no one's explain privilege and I know I personally keep throwing it around, and it looks like we might be talking about this soon so I'mma do it here real quick: privilege exists in a society that gives privileges and status to certain kinds of people, not for anything that they did but for what they are (white, a man, heterosexual, able-bodied, middle or upper class, etc.). Most people have some sort of privilege and it's nothing to be ashamed of. It's just what is. Privilege compounds itself, both for good and for ill. A wealthy cis white heteroseuxal man has waaaaaaaaaaaay more privilege and is better treated than a poor queer transwoman of color (again, this is nothing either party can control and neither party should be ashamed of it, It just is).
Anyone got anything to add or correct?

You are not to blame, or are you suspect for the privileges given to your group, Roger. Privilege does not seek to demonize anyone, just to explain certain social phenomena.


Specifically related to your footnote, Rog, no. If you try to act in a way that doesn't oppress anyone (basically, don't be an asshole and do what you've been doing regarding not tolerating bullshit), than you're not being an oppressor, actively or passively.

[Juana]

What seems kind of pointless?

This whole thread of the conversation.  The privilege discussion.  It revolves around blanket generalizations that don't really exist when you start examining reality.

Um, they do exist. Do you deny that white people are treated differently as a group than PoC? Heterosexuals than queers? Men than women? Poor than middle/upper class?
Also, what makes sociology interesting is the differences and how they play out for individual people.

[AFK]

What seems kind of pointless?

This whole thread of the conversation.  The privilege discussion.  It revolves around blanket generalizations that don't really exist when you start examining reality.

Um, they do exist. Do you deny that white people are treated differently as a group than PoC? Heterosexuals than queers? Men than women? Poor than middle/upper class?
Also, what makes sociology interesting is the differences and how they play out for individual people.

In answer to your questions, yes "some"


You can talk to 10 different white males and find ten different life scenarios, some that are better off than white women, some that are much worse than some white women, better/worse than some PoC women.  That's my issue, you seem to be implying "alls" where there should be "somes".

[The Good Reverend Roger]

I think no one's explain privilege and I know I personally keep throwing it around, and it looks like we might be talking about this soon so I'mma do it here real quick: privilege exists in a society that gives privileges and status to certain kinds of people, not for anything that they did but for what they are (white, a man, heterosexual, able-bodied, middle or upper class, etc.). Most people have some sort of privilege and it's nothing to be ashamed of. It's just what is. Privilege compounds itself, both for good and for ill. A wealthy cis white heteroseuxal man has waaaaaaaaaaaay more privilege and is better treated than a poor queer transwoman of color (again, this is nothing either party can control and neither party should be ashamed of it, It just is).
Anyone got anything to add or correct?

You are not to blame, or are you suspect for the privileges given to your group, Roger. Privilege does not seek to demonize anyone, just to explain certain social phenomena.


Specifically related to your footnote, Rog, no. If you try to act in a way that doesn't oppress anyone (basically, don't be an asshole and do what you've been doing regarding not tolerating bullshit), than you're not being an oppressor, actively or passively.

Jenn would never put up with that shit, even if I wanted to be that way...And I can't imagine a world without her. 

Neither should any of you for that matter.  Because then it would just be, you know, me and 7.3 Bn people.  All alone.  With nobody watching.  Heeee

[Juana]

Good.

That sounds rather lonely. We'll have to try not to.

What seems kind of pointless?

This whole thread of the conversation.  The privilege discussion.  It revolves around blanket generalizations that don't really exist when you start examining reality.

Um, they do exist. Do you deny that white people are treated differently as a group than PoC? Heterosexuals than queers? Men than women? Poor than middle/upper class?
Also, what makes sociology interesting is the differences and how they play out for individual people.

In answer to your questions, yes "some"


You can talk to 10 different white males and find ten different life scenarios, some that are better off than white women, some that are much worse than some white women, better/worse than some PoC women.  That's my issue, you seem to be implying "alls" where there should be "somes".

It's never ONE factor that determines how someone's life goes. Being a white dude is not the recipe for success (although it sure as fuck helps) or happiness (because even people who fit into the dominant group 100% are not always happy people). What class do those dudes come from? Are they queer? Are they able-bodied? There's other factors (as well as just shit luck) that can affect those dudes' lives, aside from whiteness. It's just that that and their sex/gender puts them in the racial and sex/gender privileged categories. That doesn't mean they can't be on the underprivileged in class or able or whatever other categories.

[Anna Mae Bollocks]

You belong to the dominant group. People who are not part of the dominant group (women, queers, PoC, etc.) are living in a place that is hostile and sometimes dangerous to us. The social vulnerability of women has been hashed and rehashed like a million times here already, so I'm not going to debate with you on this. You're not listening anyway.
Women and females have good reasons for trying to avoid conversations with strange men in certain kinds of situations (and the bus is one of them). I'm all for reconnecting with other people, but I think that could be done in ways that won't leave an entire class of people uncomfortable.

You are a bigot or presumptuous. My sexuality gets me lumped in as a queer in world that is hostile, in which I am labelled a queer because of the way I dress and look and I STILL think you are living in a deluded dreamland that sees everything as hostile. But thats just it, you presume the world is out to get you and use an ideology to hide and justify that unreasonable fear.

Garbo is really focused on the "danger" element; personally, I rarely feel actually threatened on the bus, but I often feel intruded upon, disrespected, insulted, or denigrated. I am polite to others, including people who talk to me when I don't want to have a conversation with a stranger. I believe that everyone is entitled to being treated with basic respect, and that nobody else, with the exception of their children, is entitled to their time and attention.

If ECH was reading a book and a random strange guy tried to strike up a conversation, and ECH didn't feel like having one and said "Sorry, I just want to read my book", if the guy responded with "Oh, you're too good to talk to me?" or "So I'm not as interesting as a book?" or "Right... stuck-up dick!" it's highly likely that he's a crazy person. That's weird behavior.

On the other hand, if the same interaction happens with me instead of ECH, it just becomes another commonplace interaction. It's demoralizing, dehumanizing, and tiresome to be treated like that on a regular basis, and it's reflective of some pretty icky social issues.

It does reflect icky social issues, but I'm personally not demoralized by it. If some asshole bothers me and I can make him totally lose his shit, call me a cunt and more often that not get thrown out of whereever we happen to be without so much as raising my voice, it's kind of lulzy to me. Like a successful troll. 

[Bu🤠ns]

Good.

That sounds rather lonely. We'll have to try not to.

What seems kind of pointless?

This whole thread of the conversation.  The privilege discussion.  It revolves around blanket generalizations that don't really exist when you start examining reality.

Um, they do exist. Do you deny that white people are treated differently as a group than PoC? Heterosexuals than queers? Men than women? Poor than middle/upper class?
Also, what makes sociology interesting is the differences and how they play out for individual people.

In answer to your questions, yes "some"


You can talk to 10 different white males and find ten different life scenarios, some that are better off than white women, some that are much worse than some white women, better/worse than some PoC women.  That's my issue, you seem to be implying "alls" where there should be "somes".

It's never ONE factor that determines how someone's life goes. Being a white dude is not the recipe for success (although it sure as fuck helps) or happiness (because even people who fit into the dominant group 100% are not always happy people). What class do those dudes come from? Are they queer? Are they able-bodied? There's other factors (as well as just shit luck) that can affect those dudes' lives, aside from whiteness. It's just that that and their sex/gender puts them in the racial and sex/gender privileged categories. That doesn't mean they can't be on the underprivileged in class or able or whatever other categories.

I thought that we cited plenty of examples already in this and the Patriarchy thread that the issues encompassed both men and women together.  I'm not sure I'd refer to millions of men dying in war or  men taking on the--what is it-- more than 90% death-prone jobs a 'privilege'.  Calling shit like that privilege is a slap in the face and a perpetuation of the false sense of dominance that men have been sold into believing. 

In other words, I'm still skeptical.  Someone mentioned class earlier...that seems to make a lot more sense.

[Juana]

Yes, there are drawbacks to being a man, like the draft and fatality rates of certain kinds of jobs. They don't negate the existence of male privilege. It's not a false sense of dominance - it's an artificially created but very real system that gives men privilege over women. It's no where near as bad in the West as it used to be, but it still exists and still affects the lives of women and females. Women are "dominating" the conversation if they talk speak as much as men, the pink ghetto still exists (jobs that are traditionally women's jobs - teaching, secretarial work, etc. are dead end and don't pay well), it's extraordinarily difficult for a woman/female (who are below 35 or haven't had kids) to get a hysterectomy (men/males do not have jump through half the hoops a woman or female does to get fixed), and so on. We've beaten this topic into the ground, Burns. Yes, there are things that suck about being a man, but they are far and away fewer than the things that suck about being a woman or female. Men of the same class will do better than women of the same class. Women of higher class will do better than men of lower class. But sex and gender still play a role in every interaction.

But on the whole, men still have certain privileges and status that women do not, regardless of class or race or any other factor.

[Bu🤠ns]

'Artificially created' or not it still isn't real autonomy.  It's a system where on the surface we tell everyone that it's male dominated but the shadow side contains actual, not artificial, issues. We're ALL fucked, in this Garbo, and just because men don't stand up and shout about it like the women are (thank god) finally doing doesn't make it more or less worse. 

I mean there's a part of me that feels that the fact that men don't speak up about it is worse because men are then fucked and don't even know it's happening.  Or they brush it off because "a man's gotta do what a man's gotta do" or whatever patriarchal garbage meme is being shoved down our throats.  I know, however, that to say one has it worse is just arbitrary based on individual point of view...so my reason tells me that mens' issues in this is, in fact, not worse than women's issues...its an aspect of the same buggery.

I'm not trying to convince you--I know damn well that I can't.  I've been sitting here reading these threads the past month or so and, while I feel like I've grown in some ways ... although a part of it just wasn't sitting right with me.  I think this is that part.

[Bu🤠ns]

Also, I don't care if we've beat this in to the ground. It's not resolved.

[Juana]

'Artificially created' or not it still isn't real autonomy.  It's a system where on the surface we tell everyone that it's male dominated but the shadow side contains actual, not artificial, issues. We're ALL fucked, in this Garbo, and just because men don't stand up and shout about it like the women are (thank god) finally doing doesn't make it more or less worse. 

You'll get no argument from me that it fucks everyone. Men might benefit in social and economic ways from it, but it's bad for men as people. In some ways, it limits men's ability to be an actual fucking human being because they have to live up to this very stupid idea of what being a man is, rather than letting them interpret the idea themselves (which yes, is an issue of personal autonomy).

I mean there's a part of me that feels that the fact that men don't speak up about it is worse because men are then fucked and don't even know it's happening.  Or they brush it off because "a man's gotta do what a man's gotta do" or whatever patriarchal garbage meme is being shoved down our throats.  I know, however, that to say one has it worse is just arbitrary based on individual point of view...so my reason tells me that mens' issues in this is, in fact, not worse than women's issues...its an aspect of the same buggery.

Is worse than what?

Could you rephrase the last part? I'm not entirely sure what you meant.

[Bu🤠ns]

I'm just saying I don't think it's fair to say one has it worse than another when it's still affects both men and women just in different ways.  It's more of a 'this is because that is' situation that feeds right back into itself.

I think men, because of their nature (as probably also dictated by our patriarchal system) don't feel the need to speak up about the ways it affects them.  Men will take these death prone jobs or die in a war because of these ideas like 'a man's gotta do what a man's gotta do.'

IOW, women speak up because their oppression is more overt, men don't speak up because their oppression is more covert. If a guy were to speak up, well then he's 'just being a pussy'.  And then nothing changes.