How most men, even good caring men, have no clue what women go through

[ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞]

X-posting reply from FaceSpace where I saw this 5 mins ago.

Having to deal with that bullshit from men is all kinds of not awesome.

That said, I have a hard time sometimes working out what's expected; the last three anecdotes I've read about 'if I'm reading and a guy comes up and talks to me...' have ended with

-"People seem to want to talk to you if you read so I like to read and hope someone starts a conversation"

then

-"I don't mind if you're talking about the content of the book, but don't just talk to me about 'what are you reading?'

and then

"If I'm reading DON'T TALK TO ME I'M AVOIDING YOU'.

So sometimes I do find it a bit unclear what's appropriate. That said, I suspect the public transport (ie, context) had a lot to do with it.

It seems quite clear to me.

If someone clearly asserts that they do not want to talk with you, move the fuck on.

What's so murky and difficult about that?

[hooplala]

From what I've read, the problem in the Kitty Genovese story is that everyone assumed someone else was calling for help... or maybe I'm a hopeless optimist.

Possibly.  But diffusion of responsibility does also take place when it is clear that no-one else is intervening.  Everyone waits for someone else to do something, and the longer nothing happens, the more likely people are going to think "well, it's not my responsibility to intervene.  Look at everyone else, standing around doing nothing.  Why don't they do something?"

So they Tweet about in instead.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

From what I've read, the problem in the Kitty Genovese story is that everyone assumed someone else was calling for help... or maybe I'm a hopeless optimist.

Possibly.  But diffusion of responsibility does also take place when it is clear that no-one else is intervening.  Everyone waits for someone else to do something, and the longer nothing happens, the more likely people are going to think "well, it's not my responsibility to intervene.  Look at everyone else, standing around doing nothing.  Why don't they do something?"

There was an old movie about early pilots, called Waldo Pepper.  The crash scene at the barnstorming was a perfect illustration of that behavior, though I don't recommend it to people who don't have a stomach for awful horror.

[Placid Dingo]

Re: Kitty, the original article was a beat up.

What happened was that 38 or so people heard SOME PART of the assault, or saw something. This relates to Bystander Effect which is well discussed here ;http://greatergood.berkeley.edu/article/item/we_are_all_bystanders (along with most the relevant experiements I know relating to the effect)

Also it covers something important; educating people against bystander effect is evidenced to reduce the prevalence.

[LMNO]

For Roger, the content.

I debated whether or not to share this story.

And then I debated whether or not to put it on Tumblr...but I decided it was important.  Because in my own way, I can (unfortunately) point out exactly what is wrong with men when they don't realize how hard it is to be a woman.  How we do not have equal opportunities and freedoms in everyday life.  How most men, even good caring men, have no clue what we go through on a daily basis just trying to live our lives.

So here goes.

I often ride the Metro when I commute from North Hollywood to Long Beach in order to save money.  I bring a book, pointedly wear a ring on my ring finger to imply I'm married (I'm not) and keep to myself.  

Without fail, I am aggressively approached by men on at least half of these commutes.  The most common approach is to walk up to where I am sitting with body language that practically screams LEAVE ME ALONE and sit down next to me or as close to me as possible, when the train is not crowded and there are many empty rows.  Sometimes an overly friendly arm is draped over the railing behind me, or they attempt to lean in close to talk to me as if we are old friends.  Without fail, the man or boy in question will lean to close and ask me

What are you reading?

Is that a good book?

What's that book about?


This serves the double purpose of getting my attention and trapping me in a conversation.  If I stop reading the book I enjoy to talk to you, random stranger, you hit on me or just stay way too close to me.  If I tell you to leave me alone, you get mad at me.  Because I somehow, as a woman, owe you conversation.

Tonight when I boarded the train in Long Beach at 10:30pm, it started up right away.  I was not on the train more than three minutes before three boys who looked eighteen sat in the row behind me and leaned over the seats into my personal space, close enough to breathe on me.  The one with his arm draped over onto the back of my seat asked me—surprise— "what are you reading?"  I went through my usual routine.  I told them loudly and firmly that I wanted to be left alone to read my book.  They got angry.  I was told "Why are you going to be like that?  I just wanted to talk!"  His friends start laughing at me and they don't move, telling me come on! and why are you gonna be like that? until I tell them to leave me the fuck alone, stand up, and move to the front of the car near the three other people on the train, a couple and a business man in a suit.  They spend the next two stops shouting at me from the back of the car, alternating between trying to sound flirtatious and making fun of me, shouting "I bet she's reading Stephanie Meyer!  I bet she's reading Twilight or some shit!  You reading Twilight or some shit?"

They exit the train at the next stop, and I'm relieved.  The train is going out of service at the next station, so we all exit to board a new train to Los Angeles.  As we board, the business man steps aside to let me go through the door first and asks me if those guys were bothering me.  I say yes, that it happens all the time, and he tells he'll beat them up for me if they come back.  He is a nice person who talks to me like I'm a human being instead of a walking pair of tits, and I make a mental note:  This is how a real man talks to a woman on a train.

The business man and the couple exit our new Blue Line train an exit or so later, and I think my night is ending on a good note.  A seemingly normal man enters the train with his bicycle.  At this point I am three rows from the front of the car, another man was sitting near the back of the car, and the rest of the car is empty.  Bicycle Man walks halfway down the row, and settles into the seat directly opposite me.  Perfect, I think.  Twice in one night.

It's not the first time I've been bothered multiple times.  As such, I'm still amped from the teenagers on the first train.  So when this man leans across the aisle into my personal space and asks me, yes, what are you reading, I assertively but calmly tell him to please leave me alone, I am reading.  The man stands up, moving to the front and muttering angrily over his shoulder that it isn't his fault I'm pretty.

Yes.  Exactly that.  I am the bad person in this situation because somehow this is all my fault.  I started this by being attractive.  I am making a mental note to bitch about this to my friends later.  I go so far as to write it down so I know I'm remembering it properly.  

It is at this exact moment I realize Bicycle Man is not taking it well.  The seemingly annoying but normal man a moment before is now talking to himself, becoming agitated.  In my years of being bothered by total strangers, I have learned how to hold a book and seem to be reading while taking in everything around me.  He is glaring at me, and says out loud in an angry baby talk voice "PLEASELEAVEMEALONEI'MREADING.  PLEASE LEAVE ME ALOOOONE."

Then he's up out of his seat and things go from bad to worse.  He begins pacing back and forth in front of his bike, alternating between screaming something about his mother being dead and calling me a slut, a hoe, a bitch.  I am frozen in place.  There is one other person in the car, and I'm not sure if trying to change seats will draw more attention to me or less. I trust my instincts and show no fear, doing my best to appear to be calmly reading my book, never once looking up to acknowledge the abuse he's hurling at me.  There are four stops left until we reach the main downtown station where there are lights and security officers.  Those four stops are virtually abandoned, and I have no guarantee that leaving to wait for another train won't motivate him to leave the train as well, leaving us potentially alone at a metro station platform just outside of Compton.  I'm frozen in place, trying to plan what I'm going to do if he decides to take all this rage directly to me.  I'm ready to kick him, scream, make enough noise that he panics and flees.  

At this point he's punching the walls and doors of the train, screaming at me.  He stares me full in the face and screams

SUCK MY DICK, BITCH

YOU BITCH

YOU STUPID BITCH

YOU GODDAMN HO

IF I HAD A GUN I'D SHOOT YOU

I WOULD FUCKING KILL YOU BITCH

This went on for two stops.  No one came to see what was happening.  The man in the last row was as frozen as I was.  I'm not angry he didn't come to my defense.  He was smaller, older, and frailer-looking than I was.  Again, I was worried if I got up, I would be turning my back on him to walk down the aisle.  In the state he was in, I had no guarantee it wouldn't get physical, and I had more physical strength with my back to the window and feet in kicking position where I was.  If he had chosen to assault me, I would only be making it easier for him by standing up and putting myself directly in his path.  On and on, over and over, he screamed at me, screamed at his dead mother, screamed at me again.

The moment we reached the downtown station, I was out the door and down the stairs.  I still had to catch a connecting train to North Hollywood, and made sure there was no sign of Bicycle Man before I entered the car.  That's when I finally starting shaking, and almost threw up.  By the time I exited the Red Line and reached my car I could barely breathe and my heart was pounding out of my chest.  Even now, in my own home, my hands are still shaking and for some reason the stress has made my back muscles feel cold and numb.  From all the tension, I can only assume.  I can't eat anything, I still feel like I'm going to vomit, and I'd be lying if I said I hadn't cried so much, so hard I still have the headache.

So when people (men) want to talk about "legitimate" forms of assault, tell girls they should be nice to strangers and give men the benefit of a doubt, tell them to consider it a compliment, tell them to ignore the bad behavior of men, I want them to be forced to feel, for even one minute, what it feels like to have so much verbal hatred and physical intimidation thrown at them for nothing more than being female and not wanting to share.  

I just wanted to read my book.
It's not my fault I'm pretty.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Also it covers something important; educating people against bystander effect is evidenced to reduce the prevalence.

Unfortunately, people are conditioned to avoid conflict, so education can only have a limited effect.  You don't fight conditioning with well-reasoned arguments, you fight it by using other conditioning as a lever.

[Placid Dingo]

X-posting reply from FaceSpace where I saw this 5 mins ago.

Having to deal with that bullshit from men is all kinds of not awesome.

That said, I have a hard time sometimes working out what's expected; the last three anecdotes I've read about 'if I'm reading and a guy comes up and talks to me...' have ended with

-"People seem to want to talk to you if you read so I like to read and hope someone starts a conversation"

then

-"I don't mind if you're talking about the content of the book, but don't just talk to me about 'what are you reading?'

and then

"If I'm reading DON'T TALK TO ME I'M AVOIDING YOU'.

So sometimes I do find it a bit unclear what's appropriate. That said, I suspect the public transport (ie, context) had a lot to do with it.

It seems quite clear to me.

If someone clearly asserts that they do not want to talk with you, move the fuck on.

What's so murky and difficult about that?

Reread, yo.

Talking about starting conversations, not 'what should I do if she tells me to fuck off'. I have a fairly good idea what to do if someone tells me to fuck off.

[Cain]

Also it covers something important; educating people against bystander effect is evidenced to reduce the prevalence.

Unfortunately, people are conditioned to avoid conflict, so education can only have a limited effect.  You don't fight conditioning with well-reasoned arguments, you fight it by using other conditioning as a lever.

Yes, the people most likely to intervene seem to be people whose jobs have conditioned them to get involved in such situations - police, paramedics, firefighters etc (in my personal experience - no dount there are some other jobs too).  While education certainly can help overcome the diffusion of responsibility, it cannot necessarily help with the "avoid conflict" effect.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

For Roger, the content.

I debated whether or not to share this story.

And then I debated whether or not to put it on Tumblr...but I decided it was important.  Because in my own way, I can (unfortunately) point out exactly what is wrong with men when they don't realize how hard it is to be a woman.  How we do not have equal opportunities and freedoms in everyday life.  How most men, even good caring men, have no clue what we go through on a daily basis just trying to live our lives.

So here goes.

I often ride the Metro when I commute from North Hollywood to Long Beach in order to save money.  I bring a book, pointedly wear a ring on my ring finger to imply I'm married (I'm not) and keep to myself. 

Without fail, I am aggressively approached by men on at least half of these commutes.  The most common approach is to walk up to where I am sitting with body language that practically screams LEAVE ME ALONE and sit down next to me or as close to me as possible, when the train is not crowded and there are many empty rows.  Sometimes an overly friendly arm is draped over the railing behind me, or they attempt to lean in close to talk to me as if we are old friends.  Without fail, the man or boy in question will lean to close and ask me

What are you reading?

Is that a good book?

What's that book about?


This serves the double purpose of getting my attention and trapping me in a conversation.  If I stop reading the book I enjoy to talk to you, random stranger, you hit on me or just stay way too close to me.  If I tell you to leave me alone, you get mad at me.  Because I somehow, as a woman, owe you conversation.

Tonight when I boarded the train in Long Beach at 10:30pm, it started up right away.  I was not on the train more than three minutes before three boys who looked eighteen sat in the row behind me and leaned over the seats into my personal space, close enough to breathe on me.  The one with his arm draped over onto the back of my seat asked me—surprise— "what are you reading?"  I went through my usual routine.  I told them loudly and firmly that I wanted to be left alone to read my book.  They got angry.  I was told "Why are you going to be like that?  I just wanted to talk!"  His friends start laughing at me and they don't move, telling me come on! and why are you gonna be like that? until I tell them to leave me the fuck alone, stand up, and move to the front of the car near the three other people on the train, a couple and a business man in a suit.  They spend the next two stops shouting at me from the back of the car, alternating between trying to sound flirtatious and making fun of me, shouting "I bet she's reading Stephanie Meyer!  I bet she's reading Twilight or some shit!  You reading Twilight or some shit?"

They exit the train at the next stop, and I'm relieved.  The train is going out of service at the next station, so we all exit to board a new train to Los Angeles.  As we board, the business man steps aside to let me go through the door first and asks me if those guys were bothering me.  I say yes, that it happens all the time, and he tells he'll beat them up for me if they come back.  He is a nice person who talks to me like I'm a human being instead of a walking pair of tits, and I make a mental note:  This is how a real man talks to a woman on a train.

The business man and the couple exit our new Blue Line train an exit or so later, and I think my night is ending on a good note.  A seemingly normal man enters the train with his bicycle.  At this point I am three rows from the front of the car, another man was sitting near the back of the car, and the rest of the car is empty.  Bicycle Man walks halfway down the row, and settles into the seat directly opposite me.  Perfect, I think.  Twice in one night.

It's not the first time I've been bothered multiple times.  As such, I'm still amped from the teenagers on the first train.  So when this man leans across the aisle into my personal space and asks me, yes, what are you reading, I assertively but calmly tell him to please leave me alone, I am reading.  The man stands up, moving to the front and muttering angrily over his shoulder that it isn't his fault I'm pretty.

Yes.  Exactly that.  I am the bad person in this situation because somehow this is all my fault.  I started this by being attractive.  I am making a mental note to bitch about this to my friends later.  I go so far as to write it down so I know I'm remembering it properly. 

It is at this exact moment I realize Bicycle Man is not taking it well.  The seemingly annoying but normal man a moment before is now talking to himself, becoming agitated.  In my years of being bothered by total strangers, I have learned how to hold a book and seem to be reading while taking in everything around me.  He is glaring at me, and says out loud in an angry baby talk voice "PLEASELEAVEMEALONEI'MREADING.  PLEASE LEAVE ME ALOOOONE."

Then he's up out of his seat and things go from bad to worse.  He begins pacing back and forth in front of his bike, alternating between screaming something about his mother being dead and calling me a slut, a hoe, a bitch.  I am frozen in place.  There is one other person in the car, and I'm not sure if trying to change seats will draw more attention to me or less. I trust my instincts and show no fear, doing my best to appear to be calmly reading my book, never once looking up to acknowledge the abuse he's hurling at me.  There are four stops left until we reach the main downtown station where there are lights and security officers.  Those four stops are virtually abandoned, and I have no guarantee that leaving to wait for another train won't motivate him to leave the train as well, leaving us potentially alone at a metro station platform just outside of Compton.  I'm frozen in place, trying to plan what I'm going to do if he decides to take all this rage directly to me.  I'm ready to kick him, scream, make enough noise that he panics and flees. 

At this point he's punching the walls and doors of the train, screaming at me.  He stares me full in the face and screams

SUCK MY DICK, BITCH

YOU BITCH

YOU STUPID BITCH

YOU GODDAMN HO

IF I HAD A GUN I'D SHOOT YOU

I WOULD FUCKING KILL YOU BITCH

This went on for two stops.  No one came to see what was happening.  The man in the last row was as frozen as I was.  I'm not angry he didn't come to my defense.  He was smaller, older, and frailer-looking than I was.  Again, I was worried if I got up, I would be turning my back on him to walk down the aisle.  In the state he was in, I had no guarantee it wouldn't get physical, and I had more physical strength with my back to the window and feet in kicking position where I was.  If he had chosen to assault me, I would only be making it easier for him by standing up and putting myself directly in his path.  On and on, over and over, he screamed at me, screamed at his dead mother, screamed at me again.

The moment we reached the downtown station, I was out the door and down the stairs.  I still had to catch a connecting train to North Hollywood, and made sure there was no sign of Bicycle Man before I entered the car.  That's when I finally starting shaking, and almost threw up.  By the time I exited the Red Line and reached my car I could barely breathe and my heart was pounding out of my chest.  Even now, in my own home, my hands are still shaking and for some reason the stress has made my back muscles feel cold and numb.  From all the tension, I can only assume.  I can't eat anything, I still feel like I'm going to vomit, and I'd be lying if I said I hadn't cried so much, so hard I still have the headache.

So when people (men) want to talk about "legitimate" forms of assault, tell girls they should be nice to strangers and give men the benefit of a doubt, tell them to consider it a compliment, tell them to ignore the bad behavior of men, I want them to be forced to feel, for even one minute, what it feels like to have so much verbal hatred and physical intimidation thrown at them for nothing more than being female and not wanting to share. 

I just wanted to read my book.
It's not my fault I'm pretty.

Thanks.  And again, it's all about getting involved.  The older man could have called or texted the police with the information about what train he was on.  Judging from where they were, this would have had little effect, but it's better than sitting there paralyzed.

[Placid Dingo]

Also it covers something important; educating people against bystander effect is evidenced to reduce the prevalence.

Unfortunately, people are conditioned to avoid conflict, so education can only have a limited effect.  You don't fight conditioning with well-reasoned arguments, you fight it by using other conditioning as a lever.

Yeah, that's valid.

The case in study though, not at my link, the one in a book called Opening Skinner's Box (really good intro to basic psychology ideas) basically said that when people were sat down and told

THIS IS BYSTANDER SYNDROME

IF SOMEONE IS IN TROUBLE THEY NEED HELP

WHEN SOMEONE NEEDS TO DO SOMETHING THAT SOMEONE IS YOU

And there were measurable effects on behaviour.

Re, your point on better conditioning, I only scanned the article I linked but they seem to refer back to people who have had others break out of bystander role for them (for example, a girl saved from the Holocaust) being more likely to break out of bystander role themselves.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Also it covers something important; educating people against bystander effect is evidenced to reduce the prevalence.

Unfortunately, people are conditioned to avoid conflict, so education can only have a limited effect.  You don't fight conditioning with well-reasoned arguments, you fight it by using other conditioning as a lever.

Yes, the people most likely to intervene seem to be people whose jobs have conditioned them to get involved in such situations - police, paramedics, firefighters etc (in my personal experience - no dount there are some other jobs too).  While education certainly can help overcome the diffusion of responsibility, it cannot necessarily help with the "avoid conflict" effect.

Mostly people trained to react, I'd think.  Most times I've seen people get involved - even in non-threatening situations - it turned out that they were ex-military, off-duty cops, etc.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Also it covers something important; educating people against bystander effect is evidenced to reduce the prevalence.

Unfortunately, people are conditioned to avoid conflict, so education can only have a limited effect.  You don't fight conditioning with well-reasoned arguments, you fight it by using other conditioning as a lever.

Yeah, that's valid.

The case in study though, not at my link, the one in a book called Opening Skinner's Box (really good intro to basic psychology ideas) basically said that when people were sat down and told

THIS IS BYSTANDER SYNDROME

IF SOMEONE IS IN TROUBLE THEY NEED HELP

WHEN SOMEONE NEEDS TO DO SOMETHING THAT SOMEONE IS YOU

And there were measurable effects on behaviour.

Re, your point on better conditioning, I only scanned the article I linked but they seem to refer back to people who have had others break out of bystander role for them (for example, a girl saved from the Holocaust) being more likely to break out of bystander role themselves.

I'm going to find that book.

[Placid Dingo]

Also it covers something important; educating people against bystander effect is evidenced to reduce the prevalence.

Unfortunately, people are conditioned to avoid conflict, so education can only have a limited effect.  You don't fight conditioning with well-reasoned arguments, you fight it by using other conditioning as a lever.

Yes, the people most likely to intervene seem to be people whose jobs have conditioned them to get involved in such situations - police, paramedics, firefighters etc (in my personal experience - no dount there are some other jobs too).  While education certainly can help overcome the diffusion of responsibility, it cannot necessarily help with the "avoid conflict" effect.

OK I understand this.

Reacting to a heart attack or a fire is a very different beast to a screaming human.

[hooplala]

It seems like this kind of thing can only change by the way we teach young men how to interact with women... the adult men at this point are probably a lost cause... or am I being a hopeless pessimist?

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Also it covers something important; educating people against bystander effect is evidenced to reduce the prevalence.

Unfortunately, people are conditioned to avoid conflict, so education can only have a limited effect.  You don't fight conditioning with well-reasoned arguments, you fight it by using other conditioning as a lever.

Yes, the people most likely to intervene seem to be people whose jobs have conditioned them to get involved in such situations - police, paramedics, firefighters etc (in my personal experience - no dount there are some other jobs too).  While education certainly can help overcome the diffusion of responsibility, it cannot necessarily help with the "avoid conflict" effect.

OK I understand this.

Reacting to a heart attack or a fire is a very different beast to a screaming human.

I don't think so, actually.  It's not the given situation that people avoid, it's any situation.