How most men, even good caring men, have no clue what women go through

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Also, if I'm stuck being a bad guy¹ in the eyes of my friends, based on accidents of my birth, then what the fuck am I supposed to do?

I'm getting more than a little tired of this constant shit.  I'm tired of hearing about this privilege shit, I'm tired of being told that I'm automatically suspect because of my skin color, my identity, my gender, and my orientation.

I have done nothing to any of you.  I am not responsible for 10,000 years of patriarchy.  I am responsible for ME and MY actions, and if you can't see that, then we have nothing to talk about.




¹  Every member of an oppressive class must themselves be oppressive, either actively or passively, right?

Holy shit, I hope you can see the irony in that.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Also, "I'm tired of hearing about this privilege shit".

Is it so imperative to you to WIN this point against Garbo that you would, in total seriousness, say something like that? REALLY?

I think I'm done with this thread and this board. I don't need to read what anyone else has said; a great has fallen.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

The problem is that it's impossible to talk about bigotry and oppression and people getting the short end of the stick unless you're willing to look at the flip side, which is privilege, and you HAVE to make generalizations when you're talking about the social scale, because... well, because you're talking about the social scale. If we can't have that conversation, we're stuck. And that's it.

[Juana]

I'm just saying I don't think it's fair to say one has it worse than another when it's still affects both men and women just in different ways.  It's more of a 'this is because that is' situation that feeds right back into itself.

I think men, because of their nature (as probably also dictated by our patriarchal system) don't feel the need to speak up about the ways it affects them.  Men will take these death prone jobs or die in a war because of these ideas like 'a man's gotta do what a man's gotta do.'

IOW, women speak up because their oppression is more overt, men don't speak up because their oppression is more covert. If a guy were to speak up, well then he's 'just being a pussy'.  And then nothing changes. 

Well, I'm going to.
Men are not denied very basic control over their bodies. Men are taken more seriously than women. Femmephobia. Men are not socially conditioned to tolerate behavior from other people that make them uncomfortable. Rape culture. Women are discouraged from entering hard sciences and math and shuffled toward the pink ghetto from an early age. Women have a harder time getting jobs in general. Being compared to a woman or anything feminine is a grievous insult. Women must simultaneously be unwomanly ("she's not like the other girls") and feminine ("she looks like a man!"). Women's value hinges on their beauty (which hinges on the cultural standard of beauty at the time).
I'd say that's worse. Patriarchy is geared toward men; anyone who isn't a man is going to have it worse.

Ah. Yes, I agree with that and the next one.

[Bu🤠ns]

I'm just saying I don't think it's fair to say one has it worse than another when it's still affects both men and women just in different ways.  It's more of a 'this is because that is' situation that feeds right back into itself.

I think men, because of their nature (as probably also dictated by our patriarchal system) don't feel the need to speak up about the ways it affects them.  Men will take these death prone jobs or die in a war because of these ideas like 'a man's gotta do what a man's gotta do.'

IOW, women speak up because their oppression is more overt, men don't speak up because their oppression is more covert. If a guy were to speak up, well then he's 'just being a pussy'.  And then nothing changes. 

Well, I'm going to.
Men are not denied very basic control over their bodies. Men are taken more seriously than women. Femmephobia. Men are not socially conditioned to tolerate behavior from other people that make them uncomfortable. Rape culture. Women are discouraged from entering hard sciences and shuffled toward the pink ghetto from an early age. Women have a harder time getting jobs in general. Being compared to a woman or anything feminine is a grievous insult. Women must simultaneously be unwomanly ("she's not like the other girls") and feminine ("she looks like a man!"). Women's value hinges on their beauty (which hinges on the cultural standard of beauty at the time). Being compared to a woman (or anything feminine) is a grievous insult.

Ah. Yes, I agree with that and the next one.

I agree with everything you said...I can see it happening.  That's not really what I was getting at though.  I mean I can go and describe the covert ways that men are oppressed just as well as you described the overt ways women are. Maybe some of those are less overt, but w/e, not really my point.

If the next steps for us in this thread is to go in circles describing who has it worse then I'm going to end this here...this has happened enough on this board. I want to add that I do appreciate your tactful and detailed replies, though.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Also, "I'm tired of hearing about this privilege shit".

Is it so imperative to you to WIN this point against Garbo that you would, in total seriousness, say something like that? REALLY?

I think I'm done with this thread and this board. I don't need to read what anyone else has said; a great has fallen.

WHAT THE FUCK EVER.

Thanks for the communications, by the way.  Now I'm wrapped around the axle while hosting a party of about 20 people.  I enjoy shit like that.  I enjoy being told what a complete shit I am.

Do whatever the fuck you please.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

And I am terribly fucking sorry that I went over the top with an argument that offends people's fucking religious sensibilities.

This place is a fucking toolbox.

I'm out.

[East Coast Hustle]

I'd like to say that I wish it didn't seem like some people have taken "I see some problems with feminism as it's been explained to me, here's what they are" and turned it into "Because I see some problems with feminism as it's been explained to me, I'm going to reject it completely".

I mean, somebody show me a good idea that was perfect right off the bat. Are we looking for ways to refine the idea to make it more inclusive and effective or are we just looking for reasons to decide we don't have to bother with it at all?

[Bu🤠ns]

I'd like to say that I wish it didn't seem like some people have taken "I see some problems with feminism as it's been explained to me, here's what they are" and turned it into "Because I see some problems with feminism as it's been explained to me, I'm going to reject it completely".

I mean, somebody show me a good idea that was perfect right off the bat. Are we looking for ways to refine the idea to make it more inclusive and effective or are we just looking for reasons to decide we don't have to bother with it at all?

I don't what the fuck is going on right now, but it seems like my posts are being pruned and then reinterpreted that way in other threads.  For the record, the bold is exactly why I'm participating in this discussion. 

[East Coast Hustle]

Me too. But now it seems like people are getting a case of RELIGION about it, which is fucking stupid.

IS THERE ANYBODY HERE WHO ACTUALLY DOESN'T THINK THAT WOMEN SHOULD HAVE ACTUAL EQUAL RIGHTS IN EVERY ASPECT OF LIFE? IS THERE ANYBODY HERE WHO ACTUALLY THINKS THAT WOMEN ARE INFERIOR TO MEN?

IF SO, RAISE YOUR HAND AND THEN GET THE FUCK OUT FOREVER.

If not, then perhaps we can drop the screeching and hysterical bullshit (NOTE: PEOPLE OF BOTH GENDERS ARE BEING HYSTERICAL. THIS IS NOT A COVERT INSULT TO WOMEN) and get the fuck back to figuring out effective ways of spreading the "all people should be treated as individuals and judged for WHO they are and not WHAT they are" meme.

[Juana]

I'm just saying I don't think it's fair to say one has it worse than another when it's still affects both men and women just in different ways.  It's more of a 'this is because that is' situation that feeds right back into itself.

I think men, because of their nature (as probably also dictated by our patriarchal system) don't feel the need to speak up about the ways it affects them.  Men will take these death prone jobs or die in a war because of these ideas like 'a man's gotta do what a man's gotta do.'

IOW, women speak up because their oppression is more overt, men don't speak up because their oppression is more covert. If a guy were to speak up, well then he's 'just being a pussy'.  And then nothing changes. 

Well, I'm going to.
Men are not denied very basic control over their bodies. Men are taken more seriously than women. Femmephobia. Men are not socially conditioned to tolerate behavior from other people that make them uncomfortable. Rape culture. Women are discouraged from entering hard sciences and shuffled toward the pink ghetto from an early age. Women have a harder time getting jobs in general. Being compared to a woman or anything feminine is a grievous insult. Women must simultaneously be unwomanly ("she's not like the other girls") and feminine ("she looks like a man!"). Women's value hinges on their beauty (which hinges on the cultural standard of beauty at the time). Being compared to a woman (or anything feminine) is a grievous insult.

Ah. Yes, I agree with that and the next one.

I agree with everything you said...I can see it happening.  That's not really what I was getting at though.  I mean I can go and describe the covert ways that men are oppressed just as well as you described the overt ways women are. Maybe some of those are less overt, but w/e, not really my point.

If the next steps for us in this thread is to go in circles describing who has it worse then I'm going to end this here...this has happened enough on this board. I want to add that I do appreciate your tactful and detailed replies, though.

I'm no more interested in the Oppression Olympics than you are.
I think maybe we were talking past each other. I was talking about how being the actor in a oppressive system sucks less then being the one acted upon. What were you talking about?

[Juana]

Me too. But now it seems like people are getting a case of RELIGION about it, which is fucking stupid.

IS THERE ANYBODY HERE WHO ACTUALLY DOESN'T THINK THAT WOMEN SHOULD HAVE ACTUAL EQUAL RIGHTS IN EVERY ASPECT OF LIFE? IS THERE ANYBODY HERE WHO ACTUALLY THINKS THAT WOMEN ARE INFERIOR TO MEN?

IF SO, RAISE YOUR HAND AND THEN GET THE FUCK OUT FOREVER.

If not, then perhaps we can drop the screeching and hysterical bullshit (NOTE: PEOPLE OF BOTH GENDERS ARE BEING HYSTERICAL. THIS IS NOT A COVERT INSULT TO WOMEN) and get the fuck back to figuring out effective ways of spreading the "all people should be treated as individuals and judged for WHO they are and not WHAT they are" meme.

I'm all in favor of this. I do wanna note that to effectively spread that meme, we're gonna have to be willing to examine how we are treated unequally (for good or for ill) by the system, which will lead to some screeching, though.

[East Coast Hustle]

I think he was talking about how in our current society, none of us (as in the people having this conversation) can really be considered "actors".

RWHN, in spite of the fact that he's saying it for all the wrong reasons, has a very good point about class being BY FAR the biggest "privilege chip", to the point that it may now be worth more than all of the others combined.

And I hope you see the irony in saying that you're not interested in playing the oppression olympics right before you say that you're talking about how it sucks less to be the actor in an oppressive system than to be the acted-upon in the context of a conversation in which some people are trying to raise the point that 99% of men are also acted upon by an oppressive system.

[Disco Pickle]

i made it to page 7 and ECH's comment and the subsequent shit storm i'm imagining probably happened after it.  good thread and I'll keep going and sorry if this is now old hat in the discussion.

I've been harassed by both men and women, on multiple occasions, in multiple countries.  Here in the states.

i was followed into a bathroom at a "gay" bar by a guy, who took the urinal next to me, in an empty bathroom of 6 urinals, told me i looked good or was well dressed.  i gave him a "wtf" look and said "uh.. thanks? " (i forget the details because of what happened next) and asked me what i was packing down there and leaned over to take a look at my dick.  i elbowed him in the face and probably would have done more if someone else hadn't walked in. 

i told this story to a long time friend of mine who is gay and he told me "you were in a gay bar, what did you expect? "

the implication being that going to a gay bar means you're obviously gay, and having someone check out your shit should be ok?   does not follow for "hetero" bars, why gay bars?

if anyone says it's because "if you're THERE then you must want to hook up" i have a long, laughing-at-you laugh that will follow.

when I was living in Mexico, i was walking down a side street to the local vet to get medicine for my dog.  the street passed by a local college and there  was a group of girls on the corner, talking, hanging, whatever.  as we passed them on the other side of the street the started "cat calling" me (i don't know what else to call it) yelling "guero guero ven aqui guero.  te quiero.  chingame. "  etc.  not only was it embarrassing, but i was going to get medicine for my dying dog and had no interest in talking to anyone.  they were still there when i made my way home, and it was the same scene.  in my experience, Latin women DO tend to chase men they want in a similar way that men in our culture chase women they want.  expansion on that could be its own thread.

in Belize, i was propositioned by a woman who claimed to be very rich, and told me if i came home with her that night, and came to see her a few times a year, that she'd take care of me the rest of my life.  she had just divorced her third husband, taken him for everything he owned, was rich, and had a grand daughter around my age she would introduce me to.  she was 70 if she was a day and it was clear she was not used to being told no by men at any point in her life. 

I'm going to finish the thread now, but those stories seemed relevant to tell, considering the theme up until this page that this is only an issue for women.  my apologies if that's been hashed out amongst the board by now.

[East Coast Hustle]

I think what I'm getting at is that this discussion may be better served by finding a way to explain some of these concepts that doesn't require divisive language. Like it or not, if you're going to illustrate a difference that separates all of humanity roughly 50-50 AND you want to find an effective way of showing the 50% that you're not part of that this concept is good for their self-interests also, you're going to have to find a way to communicate with that 50% of humanity without coming off as divisive or inherently dominant within the context of any discussion or implementation of this concept. And if many of the guys HERE are having a problem with how this is being presented currently, you can imagine how it will play with the average joe.

But that's certainly not an insurmountable problem. And there's no reason that the things that people are getting hung up on have to be broached immediately and overtly in the social dialogue. If history has taught us anything, it's taught us that sometimes you have to use a little trickery to convince people to act in their own best interests.