How most men, even good caring men, have no clue what women go through

[The Good Reverend Roger]

It seems like this kind of thing can only change by the way we teach young men how to interact with women... the adult men at this point are probably a lost cause... or am I being a hopeless pessimist?

I think you're being a pessimist.  Most people don't want to be the creep.  Most people don't want to be the coward who stands by.  They just don't know how not to be those things.

[Luna]

It seems like this kind of thing can only change by the way we teach young men how to interact with women... the adult men at this point are probably a lost cause... or am I being a hopeless pessimist?

I think you're being a pessimist.  Most people don't want to be the creep.  Most people don't want to be the coward who stands by.  They just don't know how not to be those things.

This.

I'm very aware that if a man strikes up a conversation with me, he most likely doesn't want to come off like a creep...  But, the simple fact is, odds are he's probably going to creep me out.  The main thing is that men need to understand the point of view of the person they're talking to... and respect the fact that, as much as he may want her attention, the fact that she doesn't want to give it is trump.

[hooplala]

It seems like this kind of thing can only change by the way we teach young men how to interact with women... the adult men at this point are probably a lost cause... or am I being a hopeless pessimist?

I think you're being a pessimist.  Most people don't want to be the creep.  Most people don't want to be the coward who stands by.  They just don't know how not to be those things.

This.

I'm very aware that if a man strikes up a conversation with me, he most likely doesn't want to come off like a creep...  But, the simple fact is, odds are he's probably going to creep me out.  The main thing is that men need to understand the point of view of the person they're talking to... and respect the fact that, as much as he may want her attention, the fact that she doesn't want to give it is trump.

Ok, but realistically... how do we teach this?  And I'm not being facetious here... I'm genuinely curious how we intend to educate adult men on this matter?

[The Good Reverend Roger]

It seems like this kind of thing can only change by the way we teach young men how to interact with women... the adult men at this point are probably a lost cause... or am I being a hopeless pessimist?

I think you're being a pessimist.  Most people don't want to be the creep.  Most people don't want to be the coward who stands by.  They just don't know how not to be those things.

This.

I'm very aware that if a man strikes up a conversation with me, he most likely doesn't want to come off like a creep...  But, the simple fact is, odds are he's probably going to creep me out.  The main thing is that men need to understand the point of view of the person they're talking to... and respect the fact that, as much as he may want her attention, the fact that she doesn't want to give it is trump.

It goes beyond that.  It requires the person to understand that you don't have the right to intrude on someone's space.  If you can't tell when someone would be okay with the idea of talking with you, best to give it a miss.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

It seems like this kind of thing can only change by the way we teach young men how to interact with women... the adult men at this point are probably a lost cause... or am I being a hopeless pessimist?

I think you're being a pessimist.  Most people don't want to be the creep.  Most people don't want to be the coward who stands by.  They just don't know how not to be those things.

This.

I'm very aware that if a man strikes up a conversation with me, he most likely doesn't want to come off like a creep...  But, the simple fact is, odds are he's probably going to creep me out.  The main thing is that men need to understand the point of view of the person they're talking to... and respect the fact that, as much as he may want her attention, the fact that she doesn't want to give it is trump.

Ok, but realistically... how do we teach this?  And I'm not being facetious here... I'm genuinely curious how we intend to educate adult men on this matter?

Locally, and by peer pressure. 

[hooplala]

Yeah I guess it would have to be.

[Luna]

It seems like this kind of thing can only change by the way we teach young men how to interact with women... the adult men at this point are probably a lost cause... or am I being a hopeless pessimist?

I think you're being a pessimist.  Most people don't want to be the creep.  Most people don't want to be the coward who stands by.  They just don't know how not to be those things.

This.

I'm very aware that if a man strikes up a conversation with me, he most likely doesn't want to come off like a creep...  But, the simple fact is, odds are he's probably going to creep me out.  The main thing is that men need to understand the point of view of the person they're talking to... and respect the fact that, as much as he may want her attention, the fact that she doesn't want to give it is trump.

Ok, but realistically... how do we teach this?  And I'm not being facetious here... I'm genuinely curious how we intend to educate adult men on this matter?

If I'm inclined to do it (which is rare, it happens on the way to work when I've got a lot of shit on my mind already, or on the way home, when I'm too fucking tired to bother), the response to, "I just wanted to be nice" could be, "well, it isn't nice to interrupt somebody when they're reading."  This, however, is giving them the conversation they want.  Counterproductive.

I may print out a couple copies of this and tuck them into the back of my kindle... and pass over a copy when that question gets asked.

[Placid Dingo]

It seems like this kind of thing can only change by the way we teach young men how to interact with women... the adult men at this point are probably a lost cause... or am I being a hopeless pessimist?

I think you're being a pessimist.  Most people don't want to be the creep.  Most people don't want to be the coward who stands by.  They just don't know how not to be those things.

This.

I'm very aware that if a man strikes up a conversation with me, he most likely doesn't want to come off like a creep...  But, the simple fact is, odds are he's probably going to creep me out.  The main thing is that men need to understand the point of view of the person they're talking to... and respect the fact that, as much as he may want her attention, the fact that she doesn't want to give it is trump.

Ok, but realistically... how do we teach this?  And I'm not being facetious here... I'm genuinely curious how we intend to educate adult men on this matter?

If I'm inclined to do it (which is rare, it happens on the way to work when I've got a lot of shit on my mind already, or on the way home, when I'm too fucking tired to bother), the response to, "I just wanted to be nice" could be, "well, it isn't nice to interrupt somebody when they're reading."  This, however, is giving them the conversation they want.  Counterproductive.

I may print out a couple copies of this and tuck them into the back of my kindle... and pass over a copy when that question gets asked.

Why on Earth would you think that's the response men want?

If I start a conversation, my motivation is, you know, to have the other person like me. Not everyone thrives on negative attention.

[ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞]

X-posting reply from FaceSpace where I saw this 5 mins ago.

Having to deal with that bullshit from men is all kinds of not awesome.

That said, I have a hard time sometimes working out what's expected; the last three anecdotes I've read about 'if I'm reading and a guy comes up and talks to me...' have ended with

-"People seem to want to talk to you if you read so I like to read and hope someone starts a conversation"

then

-"I don't mind if you're talking about the content of the book, but don't just talk to me about 'what are you reading?'

and then

"If I'm reading DON'T TALK TO ME I'M AVOIDING YOU'.

So sometimes I do find it a bit unclear what's appropriate. That said, I suspect the public transport (ie, context) had a lot to do with it.

It seems quite clear to me.

If someone clearly asserts that they do not want to talk with you, move the fuck on.

What's so murky and difficult about that?

Reread, yo.

Talking about starting conversations, not 'what should I do if she tells me to fuck off'. I have a fairly good idea what to do if someone tells me to fuck off.

That seems like a minor point that doesn't really address the issues laid out in the article. People have different expectations and different levels of social savvy—you can't possibly know for sure whether someone will want to talk with you or not unless you actually try to talk with them.

That said, a general idea in nonverbal communication is that eye contact tends to be a key indicator of whether a person wishes to open a line of communication with you. If someone doesn't give you sustained eye contact, they probably don't want to talk. Eye contact also is a mediator of discussions, if I remember correctly you "pass off" whose turn it is to talk by looking at them, and generally don't give eye contact while it's your turn.

Of course these things are loose guides, and not hard and fast rules. But again, this is besides the point. This woman had issues with the sense of entitlement displayed in the not taking no for an answer, invading her personal space, and varying levels of verbal abuse in response to being respectfully brushed off.

[LMNO]

Placid, I think context is also important.  Usually, public transportation is not considered a prime pick-up spot, and most people want to be left the fuck alone.  There are probably better locations to try to get a woman to like you by interrupting her when she's reading.  The beach, perhaps?

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Placid, I think context is also important.  Usually, public transportation is not considered a prime pick-up spot, and most people want to be left the fuck alone.  There are probably better locations to try to get a woman to like you by interrupting her when she's reading.  The beach, perhaps?

Or a coffee shop.  And the important thing is that there's no crime in attempting a conversation.  The problem happens when the attempt is rebuffed, and the person continues the attempt.

[Luna]

It seems like this kind of thing can only change by the way we teach young men how to interact with women... the adult men at this point are probably a lost cause... or am I being a hopeless pessimist?

I think you're being a pessimist.  Most people don't want to be the creep.  Most people don't want to be the coward who stands by.  They just don't know how not to be those things.

This.

I'm very aware that if a man strikes up a conversation with me, he most likely doesn't want to come off like a creep...  But, the simple fact is, odds are he's probably going to creep me out.  The main thing is that men need to understand the point of view of the person they're talking to... and respect the fact that, as much as he may want her attention, the fact that she doesn't want to give it is trump.

Ok, but realistically... how do we teach this?  And I'm not being facetious here... I'm genuinely curious how we intend to educate adult men on this matter?

If I'm inclined to do it (which is rare, it happens on the way to work when I've got a lot of shit on my mind already, or on the way home, when I'm too fucking tired to bother), the response to, "I just wanted to be nice" could be, "well, it isn't nice to interrupt somebody when they're reading."  This, however, is giving them the conversation they want.  Counterproductive.

I may print out a couple copies of this and tuck them into the back of my kindle... and pass over a copy when that question gets asked.

Why on Earth would you think that's the response men want?

If I start a conversation, my motivation is, you know, to have the other person like me. Not everyone thrives on negative attention.

They want attention.  They want a conversation.  "What are you reading" is an attempt to start a conversation, any response at all, while not the one they want, is still a response, and a percieved opening to continue that conversation.

Sure, many guys would back off... but those would be the ones generally bright enough not to interrupt a person already absorbed in a book in the first place.

Placid, I think context is also important.  Usually, public transportation is not considered a prime pick-up spot, and most people want to be left the fuck alone.  There are probably better locations to try to get a woman to like you by interrupting her when she's reading.  The beach, perhaps?

Or a coffee shop.  And the important thing is that there's no crime in attempting a conversation.  The problem happens when the attempt is rebuffed, and the person continues the attempt.

This...  Damn near every time I declined to get into a conversation, I got grumbles and pissy attitude, even when they stop trying to push the conversation. 

Hell, even sticking earphones on doesn't stop all of them.  I've had men I don't know tap me on the arm to get my attention when I ignore the first couple of questions about what I'm reading... and get all offended at a snapped "do NOT touch me."

[Placid Dingo]

Placid, I think context is also important.  Usually, public transportation is not considered a prime pick-up spot, and most people want to be left the fuck alone.  There are probably better locations to try to get a woman to like you by interrupting her when she's reading.  The beach, perhaps?

Yeah absolutely. I threw that in at the end of that post (that the context - public transport - probably had a lot to do with it.)

I guess I was making the point that it can be hard for men to pick up on the 'rules' sometimes as there can be contradictions of what's considered 'obviously' appropriate. In retrospect, possibly a bit of a threadjack, so excuse me.

Placid, I think context is also important.  Usually, public transportation is not considered a prime pick-up spot, and most people want to be left the fuck alone.  There are probably better locations to try to get a woman to like you by interrupting her when she's reading.  The beach, perhaps?

Or a coffee shop.  And the important thing is that there's no crime in attempting a conversation.  The problem happens when the attempt is rebuffed, and the person continues the attempt.

Yeah, absolutely, agreed.

[Verbal Mike]

I'm not sure Hoopla's being too pessimistic. Our culture really does train men to consider themselves entitled to female attention (Cracked had a pretty good piece with some good points on this) and I doubt the attitude of the older parts of the population can be significantly changed in any way. Individual men, sure, but not adult men as a whole. This goes way too deep. It's a matter of assumptions, expectations – the kind of thing people aren't usually conscious of.

So yes, we need to create a lot of social pressure to change this, but I don't think we can expect that pressure to re-educate adults, only to make them a little more scared of being pieces of shit because of the repercussions.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Individual men, sure, but not adult men as a whole. This goes way too deep. It's a matter of assumptions, expectations – the kind of thing people aren't usually conscious of.

That's why I say it has to be done locally, with peer pressure.