How most men, even good caring men, have no clue what women go through

[Verbal Mike]

The problem I've seen with the gender/privilege discussion is that the generalization seems to be accompanied with a notion of "you haven't walked in our shoes".  And that,for me,where the generalization doesn't work.  If you want to talk broadly about gender inequality,that's one thing, but if it becomes used,inaccurately,as a cudgel against, in this case men,suggesting "you don't know what it's like", well that's a problem, and it doesn't work.  Because as I've pointed out, and will continue to point out, there are many,many men who are in less privileged positions in society compared to many,many women because of issues of class.


So sure,have the generalized gender inequality discussion,but maybe drop the "men don't know what it's like" part in termsof privilege because inmany cases it is a load of bullshit.

So RWHN, in a discussion of class, women can claim to know what it's like to be in a non-privileged class even if they aren't in that class? Because being non-privileged in one way gives you perfect knowledge of being non-privileged in all other ways?

Bullshit. I don't know what it's like to be a woman, and I don't know what it's like to be destitute, because I'm a middle class man. I know what it's like to be oppressed, we all do, but I don't know what it's like to be oppressed for being a woman.

ETA quote.

[AFK]

And that's just it,there are so many layers and so many variables within groups whether it is gender, class, race, etc.  So it makes no sense, to me, to assume blanket privilege amongst ALL men because, no, not all men enjoy privilege.  It's just not true.

[AFK]

Let me give you another example.  I'm taking on this intern, he's a 40-something, very blue-collar, former trucker who is pursuing an Associates in drug&alcohol counseling.  He's been turned down for internships by many organizations in my area.  I have no doubt in my mind the reason he has been turned down is because he isn't fitting a mold.  If he was a 20-something female student, he would have been snatched up in an instant.  But because he's this big, blue-collar big-rig operator, nobody wants anything to do with him.  So I say again, privilege doesn't work for ALL men, AND, there are times when women enjoy privilege, my example being one small one.

[Signora Pæsior]

And that's just it,there are so many layers and so many variables within groups whether it is gender, class, race, etc.  So it makes no sense, to me, to assume blanket privilege amongst ALL men because, no, not all men enjoy privilege.  It's just not true.

But you can be privileged in some ways and not in others -- that's what kyriarchy is all about. I am a white woman. I don't experience societal privilege on the basis of gender, but I do on the basis of my race. If we were discussing race, it would be disingenuous to say I'm not privileged because I experience oppression as a woman. I don't have gender privilege, but I have racial privilege. How those affect me depends entirely on the situation. There will be situations where I am better off than a black man (I can, for example, walk into a convenience store wearing a hoodie and be fairly safe in the assumption that I will not be assumed to be carrying a weapon) and there will be situations where that black man will be better off than me (he will not risk being passed over for a promotion because he has young children, for example).

There's actually a real disconnect with the way the word "privilege" is used in everyday speak and the way it's used in feminist/kyriarchy/etc discussions, and I think that might be part of the issue here (or not; I have skipped over parts of the thread). Privilege, in this context, doesn't mean "everything is good for you and you have no idea what suffering is", because that would be ridiculous.

[AFK]

How are you defining it?


It IS a loaded word, on a certain level, no matter how you define it.  If you tell some poor white dude on the corner he has privilege, regardless of how you are using it, he's probably going to laugh in your face and then go cry in a corner.  For me, it borders on offensive in that context.

[Verbal Mike]

Again, RWHN:

It seems to me like a large part of the problem here is the problem I almost inevitably see crop up in discussions involving Privilege Theory.

There isn't a clear enough emphasis that privilege is something that happens to some people, not something they are doing.

Receiving privilege does not make someone "part of the problem" and in most cases, one could not divest oneself of a given form of privilege even if one tried.
Receiving privilege doesn't make you part of an oppressive class, it makes you part of a class that is favored in some way by society and/or culture.
Receiving privilege doesn't mean you can't have valid insights, but it does mean there's probably some different cognitive biases that are likely to be at play in your worldview than the cognitive biases likely to effect people who didn't receive that particular privilege.

This seems like the best explanation of the concept so far, though it only makes sense in the context of a system of oppression where you can be privileged in one way and unprivileged in another way.


There also seems to be a confusion about two senses of "regardless" that comes up here. "Women are worse off, regardless of class" can mean class doesn't play a factor (which would be a stupid falsehood) OR it could mean "class being equal, women are worse off" or "taking only gender into account, women are worse off" or something like that, which is a vey different thing to say. Granted, "regardless" isn't usually used in the latter sense, so that can be a poor choice of words, but ignoring certain factors in order to focus on others is not only okay, it's sometimes necessary.

[AFK]

Not if it is in a context where it alienates those who do not enjoy the privilege because of those other factors like class.  Especially if you want them to be allies or to just philosophically support your cause.

[Placid Dingo]

Not if it is in a context where it alienates those who do not enjoy the privilege because of those other factors like class.  Especially if you want them to be allies or to just philosophically support your cause.

All men enjoy the privleges that come with being men even if their overall situation is still worse than most peoples because of other factors.

Even if I'm a poor gay lady, I can still have white privilege by not having to put up with some if the crap other racial groups have. This isn't less true because many.many.people are better off than me

[Verbal Mike]

Not if it is in a context where it alienates those who do not enjoy the privilege because of those other factors like class.  Especially if you want them to be allies or to just philosophically support your cause.

I think you're not getting this (at least in the way I understand it). Being poor doesn't cancel out gender inequality, it just causes it to be expressed in different ways. The other day a female friend remarked she's pretty sure gender inequality is worse the poorer the social group. (From her experience as a teacher, having contact with dozens of families over the years, from very different classes.)

And again, privilege isn't about enjoying anything. It's about being treated better, on some dimension, than some other group. You might be on the other end of the spectrum on some other dimension, the two things are separate and interact but, I emphasize, do not generally cancel each other out.

That said, this topic does have to be communicated in a way that acknowledges that it's Kyriarchy, not just Patriarchy. But practically everyone discussing Patriarchy here has acknowledged that, explicitly, many times.

[Bu🤠ns]

I was trying to say earlier in this thread that what others call privilege comes with a shadow side that is far from enjoyable.  I mentioned that men dying in wars and and taking over 90% of death-prone jobs is a direct result of that privilege that folks in this thread are saying that men enjoy. I tried to say that men bought this notion that it's somehow a good position to be in...when in fact we've been hoodwinked into believing that the so called power and privilege that men do have is actually a covert form of oppression.  You might say that men have oppressed themselves, in some sense.

[Verbal Mike]

Exactly.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

It seems to me like a large part of the problem here is the problem I almost inevitably see crop up in discussions involving Privilege Theory.

There isn't a clear enough emphasis that privilege is something that happens to some people, not something they are doing.

Receiving privilege does not make someone "part of the problem" and in most cases, one could not divest oneself of a given form of privilege even if one tried.
Receiving privilege doesn't make you part of an oppressive class, it makes you part of a class that is favored in some way by society and/or culture.
Receiving privilege doesn't mean you can't have valid insights, but it does mean there's probably some different cognitive biases that are likely to be at play in your worldview than the cognitive biases likely to effect people who didn't receive that particular privilege.

A thousand times this.
I kind of thought this had already been pointed out, but I doubt any of us has a clear memory of more than a couple percent of this discussion by now anyhow.

Not so!  Go ask Epi, the human fucking pilot fish.

[AFK]

Not if it is in a context where it alienates those who do not enjoy the privilege because of those other factors like class.  Especially if you want them to be allies or to just philosophically support your cause.

All men enjoy the privleges that come with being men even if their overall situation is still worse than most peoples because of other factors.

Tell that to the poor whit guy who can't even get into the door for a job interview.  Or the intern I talked about who got passed over by many other places while his female classmates were already starting internships.  Yeah, that "privilege" is really doing wonders for him.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Not if it is in a context where it alienates those who do not enjoy the privilege because of those other factors like class.  Especially if you want them to be allies or to just philosophically support your cause.

All men enjoy the privleges that come with being men even if their overall situation is still worse than most peoples because of other factors.

Tell that to the poor whit guy who can't even get into the door for a job interview.  Or the intern I talked about who got passed over by many other places while his female classmates were already starting internships.  Yeah, that "privilege" is really doing wonders for him.

RWHN, not sure why you're doing this.  There is only one permissable answer and no permissable arguments or questions.  Meta discussion of this particular thread is possible, but discussion of the topic itself is not.

[AFK]

Not if it is in a context where it alienates those who do not enjoy the privilege because of those other factors like class.  Especially if you want them to be allies or to just philosophically support your cause.

I think you're not getting this (at least in the way I understand it). Being poor doesn't cancel out gender inequality, it just causes it to be expressed in different ways. The other day a female friend remarked she's pretty sure gender inequality is worse the poorer the social group. (From her experience as a teacher, having contact with dozens of families over the years, from very different classes.)

And again, privilege isn't about enjoying anything. It's about being treated better, on some dimension, than some other group. You might be on the other end of the spectrum on some other dimension, the two things are separate and interact but, I emphasize, do not generally cancel each other out.

That said, this topic does have to be communicated in a way that acknowledges that it's Kyriarchy, not just Patriarchy. But practically everyone discussing Patriarchy here has acknowledged that, explicitly, many times.

It isn't about enjoying anything, it is about being treated better...


Please tell me that you understand that those two phrases are at odds with each other.