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How most men, even good caring men, have no clue what women go through

Started by ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞, September 06, 2012, 10:59:53 AM

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AFK

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on September 09, 2012, 04:38:10 PM
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on September 09, 2012, 04:36:44 PM
Quote from: Placid Dingo on September 09, 2012, 02:22:42 PM
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on September 09, 2012, 02:17:21 PM
Not if it is in a context where it alienates those who do not enjoy the privilege because of those other factors like class.  Especially if you want them to be allies or to just philosophically support your cause.

All men enjoy the privleges that come with being men even if their overall situation is still worse than most peoples because of other factors.



Tell that to the poor whit guy who can't even get into the door for a job interview.  Or the intern I talked about who got passed over by many other places while his female classmates were already starting internships.  Yeah, that "privilege" is really doing wonders for him.

RWHN, not sure why you're doing this.  There is only one permissable answer and no permissable arguments or questions.  Meta discussion of this particular thread is possible, but discussion of the topic itself is not.


It's just sticking in my craw for reasons I've explained.  This high-level, generalized paradigm just doesn't work.  It doesn't jive with reality, at all.
Cynicism is a blank check for failure.

The Good Reverend Roger

Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on September 09, 2012, 04:41:22 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on September 09, 2012, 04:38:10 PM
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on September 09, 2012, 04:36:44 PM
Quote from: Placid Dingo on September 09, 2012, 02:22:42 PM
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on September 09, 2012, 02:17:21 PM
Not if it is in a context where it alienates those who do not enjoy the privilege because of those other factors like class.  Especially if you want them to be allies or to just philosophically support your cause.

All men enjoy the privleges that come with being men even if their overall situation is still worse than most peoples because of other factors.



Tell that to the poor whit guy who can't even get into the door for a job interview.  Or the intern I talked about who got passed over by many other places while his female classmates were already starting internships.  Yeah, that "privilege" is really doing wonders for him.

RWHN, not sure why you're doing this.  There is only one permissable answer and no permissable arguments or questions.  Meta discussion of this particular thread is possible, but discussion of the topic itself is not.


It's just sticking in my craw for reasons I've explained.  This high-level, generalized paradigm just doesn't work.  It doesn't jive with reality, at all.

Neither does this discussion.
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

"Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

Verbal Mike

Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on September 09, 2012, 04:39:12 PM
Quote from: VERBL on September 09, 2012, 02:26:54 PM
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on September 09, 2012, 02:17:21 PM
Not if it is in a context where it alienates those who do not enjoy the privilege because of those other factors like class.  Especially if you want them to be allies or to just philosophically support your cause.
I think you're not getting this (at least in the way I understand it). Being poor doesn't cancel out gender inequality, it just causes it to be expressed in different ways. The other day a female friend remarked she's pretty sure gender inequality is worse the poorer the social group. (From her experience as a teacher, having contact with dozens of families over the years, from very different classes.)

And again, privilege isn't about enjoying anything. It's about being treated better, on some dimension, than some other group. You might be on the other end of the spectrum on some other dimension, the two things are separate and interact but, I emphasize, do not generally cancel each other out.

That said, this topic does have to be communicated in a way that acknowledges that it's Kyriarchy, not just Patriarchy. But practically everyone discussing Patriarchy here has acknowledged that, explicitly, many times.


It isn't about enjoying anything, it is about being treated better...


Please tell me that you understand that those two phrases are at odds with each other. 
Umm, yeah. Have you been reading what I'm writing? Because I keep saying it's about being treated better, too. And like I keep repeating, these distinctions take place on multiple dimensions on the same time. This point has been established, acknowledged, and repeated, several times within the last 24 hours and far more times within the last month. What are you waiting for me to say? Or for anybody to say? Nobody is claiming that the only form of privilege/oppression that exists is the gender-based kind. Nobody, as far as I can recall, is even saying it's the worst kind that exists. I and a few others here just insist that it does exist, and that it impacts women in ways that are not obvious to men. This does not come instead of any other aspect of the bigger picture, but it certainly seems to be part of it.
Unless stated otherwise, feel free to copy or reproduce any text I post anywhere and any way you like. I will never throw a hissy-fit over it, promise.

East Coast Hustle

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on September 09, 2012, 04:43:36 PM
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on September 09, 2012, 04:41:22 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on September 09, 2012, 04:38:10 PM
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on September 09, 2012, 04:36:44 PM
Quote from: Placid Dingo on September 09, 2012, 02:22:42 PM
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on September 09, 2012, 02:17:21 PM
Not if it is in a context where it alienates those who do not enjoy the privilege because of those other factors like class.  Especially if you want them to be allies or to just philosophically support your cause.

All men enjoy the privleges that come with being men even if their overall situation is still worse than most peoples because of other factors.



Tell that to the poor whit guy who can't even get into the door for a job interview.  Or the intern I talked about who got passed over by many other places while his female classmates were already starting internships.  Yeah, that "privilege" is really doing wonders for him.

RWHN, not sure why you're doing this.  There is only one permissable answer and no permissable arguments or questions.  Meta discussion of this particular thread is possible, but discussion of the topic itself is not.


It's just sticking in my craw for reasons I've explained.  This high-level, generalized paradigm just doesn't work.  It doesn't jive with reality, at all.

Neither does this discussion.

Dude. If you don't want to be part of the discussion anymore that's your prerogative but how about not trying to derail it for everyone else with snark and butthurt? All you have to do is not click the thread.
Rabid Colostomy Hole Jammer of the Coming Apocalypse™

The Devil is in the details; God is in the nuance.


Some yahoo yelled at me, saying 'GIVE ME LIBERTY OR GIVE ME DEATH', and I thought, "I'm feeling generous today.  Why not BOTH?"

The Good Reverend Roger

Quote from: East Coast Hustle on September 09, 2012, 05:07:16 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on September 09, 2012, 04:43:36 PM
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on September 09, 2012, 04:41:22 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on September 09, 2012, 04:38:10 PM
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on September 09, 2012, 04:36:44 PM
Quote from: Placid Dingo on September 09, 2012, 02:22:42 PM
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on September 09, 2012, 02:17:21 PM
Not if it is in a context where it alienates those who do not enjoy the privilege because of those other factors like class.  Especially if you want them to be allies or to just philosophically support your cause.

All men enjoy the privleges that come with being men even if their overall situation is still worse than most peoples because of other factors.



Tell that to the poor whit guy who can't even get into the door for a job interview.  Or the intern I talked about who got passed over by many other places while his female classmates were already starting internships.  Yeah, that "privilege" is really doing wonders for him.

RWHN, not sure why you're doing this.  There is only one permissable answer and no permissable arguments or questions.  Meta discussion of this particular thread is possible, but discussion of the topic itself is not.


It's just sticking in my craw for reasons I've explained.  This high-level, generalized paradigm just doesn't work.  It doesn't jive with reality, at all.

Neither does this discussion.

Dude. If you don't want to be part of the discussion anymore that's your prerogative but how about not trying to derail it for everyone else with snark and butthurt? All you have to do is not click the thread.

Point.

Baboonery over.
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

"Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

AFK

#365
Quote from: VERBL on September 09, 2012, 04:47:39 PM
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on September 09, 2012, 04:39:12 PM
Quote from: VERBL on September 09, 2012, 02:26:54 PM
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on September 09, 2012, 02:17:21 PM
Not if it is in a context where it alienates those who do not enjoy the privilege because of those other factors like class.  Especially if you want them to be allies or to just philosophically support your cause.
I think you're not getting this (at least in the way I understand it). Being poor doesn't cancel out gender inequality, it just causes it to be expressed in different ways. The other day a female friend remarked she's pretty sure gender inequality is worse the poorer the social group. (From her experience as a teacher, having contact with dozens of families over the years, from very different classes.)

And again, privilege isn't about enjoying anything. It's about being treated better, on some dimension, than some other group. You might be on the other end of the spectrum on some other dimension, the two things are separate and interact but, I emphasize, do not generally cancel each other out.

That said, this topic does have to be communicated in a way that acknowledges that it's Kyriarchy, not just Patriarchy. But practically everyone discussing Patriarchy here has acknowledged that, explicitly, many times.


It isn't about enjoying anything, it is about being treated better...


Please tell me that you understand that those two phrases are at odds with each other. 
Umm, yeah. Have you been reading what I'm writing? Because I keep saying it's about being treated better, too. And like I keep repeating, these distinctions take place on multiple dimensions on the same time. This point has been established, acknowledged, and repeated, several times within the last 24 hours and far more times within the last month. What are you waiting for me to say? Or for anybody to say? Nobody is claiming that the only form of privilege/oppression that exists is the gender-based kind. Nobody, as far as I can recall, is even saying it's the worst kind that exists. I and a few others here just insist that it does exist, and that it impacts women in ways that are not obvious to men. This does not come instead of any other aspect of the bigger picture, but it certainly seems to be part of it.


I read what you just wrote where you said privilege isn't about enjoying anything, it's about being treated better.  If someone is being treated better, they are enjoying being treated better.  That is enjoying something.  But the thing is, yes, many WASPy men do get treated better, but many down at the bottom of the social ladder get treated like dirt.  I'm "waiting" for some acknowledgement of that fact and that, therefore, the blanket generalization all men enjoy privilege, all men enjoy being treated better, is bullshit. 


Some do, all don't. Period.
Cynicism is a blank check for failure.

East Coast Hustle

I think you are (perhaps willfully) not understanding what the concept of privilege means in the context of this discussion.
Rabid Colostomy Hole Jammer of the Coming Apocalypse™

The Devil is in the details; God is in the nuance.


Some yahoo yelled at me, saying 'GIVE ME LIBERTY OR GIVE ME DEATH', and I thought, "I'm feeling generous today.  Why not BOTH?"

East Coast Hustle

That said, I also think that the whole "privilege" discussion is somewhat of a red herring and obviously not conducive to actual productive conversation here.
Rabid Colostomy Hole Jammer of the Coming Apocalypse™

The Devil is in the details; God is in the nuance.


Some yahoo yelled at me, saying 'GIVE ME LIBERTY OR GIVE ME DEATH', and I thought, "I'm feeling generous today.  Why not BOTH?"

AFK

Quote from: East Coast Hustle on September 09, 2012, 05:19:27 PM
I think you are (perhaps willfully) not understanding what the concept of privilege means in the context of this discussion.


Well then someone clear up what I'm missing, I mean VERBL tried but his argument has some internal validity issues.  You can't say someone receives better treatment but isn't enjoying something.  That doesn't make any sense.
Cynicism is a blank check for failure.

Igor

Here is an article comparing "privilege" to video game difficulty settings.

I think it makes a lot of sense.

http://whatever.scalzi.com/2012/05/15/straight-white-male-the-lowest-difficulty-setting-there-is/

Quote...Now, once you've selected the "Straight White Male" difficulty setting, you still have to create a character, and how many points you get to start — and how they are apportioned — will make a difference. Initially the computer will tell you how many points you get and how they are divided up. If you start with 25 points, and your dump stat is wealth, well, then you may be kind of screwed. If you start with 250 points and your dump stat is charisma, well, then you're probably fine. Be aware the computer makes it difficult to start with more than 30 points; people on higher difficulty settings generally start with even fewer than that....
Be what you would seem to be - or, if you'd like it put more simply - never imagine yourself not to be otherwise than what it might appear to others that what you were or might have been was not otherwise than what you had been would have appeared to them to be otherwise.

East Coast Hustle

Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on September 09, 2012, 05:25:20 PM
Quote from: East Coast Hustle on September 09, 2012, 05:19:27 PM
I think you are (perhaps willfully) not understanding what the concept of privilege means in the context of this discussion.


Well then someone clear up what I'm missing, I mean VERBL tried but his argument has some internal validity issues.  You can't say someone receives better treatment but isn't enjoying something.  That doesn't make any sense.

Well as soon as you stop being so intent on being hung up on a meaningless line, perhaps you can go read Corbeau et Renard's excellent post that defines it.

And for the record, yes you can. I can go to the dentist and have my teeth drilled with or without anesthetic. One is clearly better treatment, but it doesn't mean I enjoy having my teeth drilled.
Rabid Colostomy Hole Jammer of the Coming Apocalypse™

The Devil is in the details; God is in the nuance.


Some yahoo yelled at me, saying 'GIVE ME LIBERTY OR GIVE ME DEATH', and I thought, "I'm feeling generous today.  Why not BOTH?"

Bu🤠ns

Quote from: Igor on September 09, 2012, 05:28:01 PM
Here is an article comparing "privilege" to video game difficulty settings.

I think it makes a lot of sense.

http://whatever.scalzi.com/2012/05/15/straight-white-male-the-lowest-difficulty-setting-there-is/

Quote...Now, once you've selected the "Straight White Male" difficulty setting, you still have to create a character, and how many points you get to start — and how they are apportioned — will make a difference. Initially the computer will tell you how many points you get and how they are divided up. If you start with 25 points, and your dump stat is wealth, well, then you may be kind of screwed. If you start with 250 points and your dump stat is charisma, well, then you're probably fine. Be aware the computer makes it difficult to start with more than 30 points; people on higher difficulty settings generally start with even fewer than that....

I don't think that the issue that that we don't get it.  The issue that keeps reoccurring for me is that there are so many dynamics that play into this on a case by case basis, it doesn't seem like there's an adequate way to measure it without resorting to generalizations.   I'm not going to simply accept this premise based on a broad generalization. 

What I can see are various specific issues surrounding class, gender, race and so on that need to be addressed individually.  In my opinion, if there's real work to be done, it's here.

Juana

#372
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on September 09, 2012, 11:57:36 AM
Quote from: Secret Agent GARBO on September 09, 2012, 03:29:00 AM
But on the whole, men still have certain privileges and status that women do not, regardless of class or race or any other factor.


No, that's bullshit, not "regardless of class".  You can't tell me the white single Dad on welfare has some level of privilege over Nancy Pelosi.  That's just such an insanely stupid thing to suggest that it pretty much discredits any supposed authority you think you have on this subject.
You're pretty fucking stupid if you're ignoring the class difference between Pelosi and said dude. You're also stupid if you insisting in ignoring the very real differences that exit between the genders. Condoms are unlikely to be outlawed, but there are people talking about doing it to certain kinds of female birthcontrol. No one puts bills affecting his health through the ag committee, like Illinois does. He's trusted to know what he wants, if she weren't Nancy Pelosi, there are things in which she wouldn't (whether or not she really wanted to have kids, for example).  The list goes on, but I'm pretty much done talking to you about it.


Edited to add a better example.
"I dispose of obsolete meat machines.  Not because I hate them (I do) and not because they deserve it (they do), but because they are in the way and those older ones don't meet emissions codes.  They emit too much.  You don't like them and I don't like them, so spare me the hysteria."

AFK

Quote from: East Coast Hustle on September 09, 2012, 05:28:43 PM
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on September 09, 2012, 05:25:20 PM
Quote from: East Coast Hustle on September 09, 2012, 05:19:27 PM
I think you are (perhaps willfully) not understanding what the concept of privilege means in the context of this discussion.


Well then someone clear up what I'm missing, I mean VERBL tried but his argument has some internal validity issues.  You can't say someone receives better treatment but isn't enjoying something.  That doesn't make any sense.

Well as soon as you stop being so intent on being hung up on a meaningless line, perhaps you can go read Corbeau et Renard's excellent post that defines it.

And for the record, yes you can. I can go to the dentist and have my teeth drilled with or without anesthetic. One is clearly better treatment, but it doesn't mean I enjoy having my teeth drilled.


My problem with CeR's post is that it still is too limited.  A white male born into generational poverty is not receiving any privilege as it is being described in this thread.  He is not enjoying any advantage due to his gender.  He is enjoying great disadvantage and poor treatment because of his class.  So in the case of lower class males, I do not agree with the idea that they are receiving privilege. 
Cynicism is a blank check for failure.

AFK

Quote from: Secret Agent GARBO on September 09, 2012, 06:01:18 PM
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on September 09, 2012, 11:57:36 AM
Quote from: Secret Agent GARBO on September 09, 2012, 03:29:00 AM
But on the whole, men still have certain privileges and status that women do not, regardless of class or race or any other factor.


No, that's bullshit, not "regardless of class".  You can't tell me the white single Dad on welfare has some level of privilege over Nancy Pelosi.  That's just such an insanely stupid thing to suggest that it pretty much discredits any supposed authority you think you have on this subject.
You're pretty fucking stupid if you're ignoring the class difference between Pelosi and said dude. You're also stupid if you insisting in ignoring the very real differences that exit between the genders. Condoms are unlikely to be outlawed, but there are people talking about doing it to certain kinds of female birthcontrol. No one puts bills affecting his health through the ag committee, like Illinois does. The list goes on, but I'm pretty much done talking to you about it.


Hang on, editing


No, I've felt that YOU are ignoring the class difference, you even say "regardless of class".  But you can't disregard class because it WILL trump gender when it comes to how individuals are treated by society.


The issue with condoms and birth control I get, but I think that is a different discussion than the assertion that every male enjoys some privielege received just for drawing breath and having dangly bits between his legs.  I agree in terms of broad policy, policies like the one you describe does show a broad level inequality that needs to be addressed.  But for a guy that is downonhis luck, and certainly has little human companionship let alone some of the opposite gender, the condom thing isn't any kind of privilege that even matters to him.  He is socially undesireable by both genders,so it doesn't matter to him.
Cynicism is a blank check for failure.