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Green Canidates on the ballot in several states...

Started by AFK, September 08, 2012, 01:01:02 AM

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Placid Dingo

We had a really close Election last time, and Greens and Independents helped form a Coalition government.

The opposition have made it their mission to be as obstructionist as possible, everyone hates politics and is tuning out. Basically there's enough loathing for the way things turned out that I think we've knocked back the possibility of a more than two party system back by at least another 20/30 years.
Haven't paid rent since 2014 with ONE WEIRD TRICK.

Nephew Twiddleton

Quote from: Placid Dingo on September 08, 2012, 06:27:11 AM
We had a really close Election last time, and Greens and Independents helped form a Coalition government.

The opposition have made it their mission to be as obstructionist as possible, everyone hates politics and is tuning out. Basically there's enough loathing for the way things turned out that I think we've knocked back the possibility of a more than two party system back by at least another 20/30 years.

So, Coalition governments- I get them to a certain degree (also the use of the word government, since we use administration here, is an interesting distinction. We think of government as, ok, the USA is a Federal Republic, the UK is a Constitutional Monarchy with a democratically elected Parliament, Russia's a mess, and you Aussies are all debating the definition of knife whilst drinking Fosters). But how does it exactly work? During the elections, is it like, ok, we're running against each other but we agree to cooperate with each other against those guys for this particular set of policies until the next election sort of thing? Or is it more, err, ok, so some of us got in, some of you got in, lets see what we can do as far as compromise sort of thing? Or a little of both? I ask, because one of my political interests is creating a viable multiparty system in the US under the Federal Republic system. It ain't gonna happen any time soon, but, I'd like to see how it works.

Like for example, your average Green Party member here, as far as I can tell, is a former member of the Democratic Party, or would otherwise agree with the Democratic Party on most things, if not for the fact that they were owned by corporations.

Like, my first preference in voting is Green, followed by one of the many Socialist Parties that have 5 people in them because Socialists can't agree on anything and aren't anything like the monolithic infiltrators the Right makes them out to be, followed by any party with the word Worker in it, followed by the Communists, followed by the Democrats, followed by write in candidate, followed by Libertarian Party, never followed by Republican Party. But I used to be a Dem, and I voted for Al Gore. And even though the Dems are pretty low on that list, sometimes for an election, that automatically defaults as my first choice. Usually for Senate race, for example.

So, from what I understand, Australia's form of government is fairly similar to that of the US, barring the fact that you have a monarch who lives in London of course. How does a coalition government work in that form? Do you have a multiple choice ballot? What effect does compulsory voting have on all of that?
Strange and Terrible Organ Laminator of Yesterday's Heavy Scene
Sentence or sentence fragment pending

Soy El Vaquero Peludo de Oro

TIM AM I, PRIMARY OF THE EXTRA-ATMOSPHERIC SIMIANS

Placid Dingo

our system is the same as the Brits. Constitutional Monarchy.

I'm not super super familiar but basically if not enough of one party win votes to make a majority, others clump together to form a government, though independents and greens have been able to make deals for things like the carbon tax.

We get a multiple party ballot.

I dont think compulsory voting has much impact other than more votes.
Haven't paid rent since 2014 with ONE WEIRD TRICK.

Nephew Twiddleton

Quote from: Placid Dingo on September 08, 2012, 06:58:06 AM
our system is the same as the Brits. Constitutional Monarchy.

I'm not super super familiar but basically if not enough of one party win votes to make a majority, others clump together to form a government, though independents and greens have been able to make deals for things like the carbon tax.

We get a multiple party ballot.

I dont think compulsory voting has much impact other than more votes.

Ah, gotcha. For some reason I had it in my head you guys were a Federal Republic with a Queen and her Australian regent as Head of State.

I guess what I mean by multiple choice ballot is if you guys get to vote in order of preference. I think some places do that but I'm not sure where. Here, depending on what state you're in, you get more restriction in primaries, but you get to vote for whomever in the general election. For example, here in MA, if the Green Party happens to have party status at that particular time, I must vote for a Green. If the Green Party does not have party status at the time of the primary, I can choose, since I'm technically an independent. I could, theoretically, have said this year, "I want to vote as a Republican" and said, "Fuck Romney, I'm voting for Herman Cain" and then gone on to vote for no Republicans at all in the general election. That's not across the board, just how it works in my state.
Strange and Terrible Organ Laminator of Yesterday's Heavy Scene
Sentence or sentence fragment pending

Soy El Vaquero Peludo de Oro

TIM AM I, PRIMARY OF THE EXTRA-ATMOSPHERIC SIMIANS

Placid Dingo

Quote from: Nephew Twiddleton on September 08, 2012, 07:09:08 AM
Quote from: Placid Dingo on September 08, 2012, 06:58:06 AM
our system is the same as the Brits. Constitutional Monarchy.

I'm not super super familiar but basically if not enough of one party win votes to make a majority, others clump together to form a government, though independents and greens have been able to make deals for things like the carbon tax.

We get a multiple party ballot.

I dont think compulsory voting has much impact other than more votes.

Ah, gotcha. For some reason I had it in my head you guys were a Federal Republic with a Queen and her Australian regent as Head of State.

I guess what I mean by multiple choice ballot is if you guys get to vote in order of preference. I think some places do that but I'm not sure where. Here, depending on what state you're in, you get more restriction in primaries, but you get to vote for whomever in the general election. For example, here in MA, if the Green Party happens to have party status at that particular time, I must vote for a Green. If the Green Party does not have party status at the time of the primary, I can choose, since I'm technically an independent. I could, theoretically, have said this year, "I want to vote as a Republican" and said, "Fuck Romney, I'm voting for Herman Cain" and then gone on to vote for no Republicans at all in the general election. That's not across the board, just how it works in my state.

You vote however you want.

I ran as a green once, and even then there was nothing stopping me voting for someone else.

The party chooses the representative, not the voters.
Haven't paid rent since 2014 with ONE WEIRD TRICK.

Nephew Twiddleton

Quote from: Placid Dingo on September 08, 2012, 07:21:42 AM
Quote from: Nephew Twiddleton on September 08, 2012, 07:09:08 AM
Quote from: Placid Dingo on September 08, 2012, 06:58:06 AM
our system is the same as the Brits. Constitutional Monarchy.

I'm not super super familiar but basically if not enough of one party win votes to make a majority, others clump together to form a government, though independents and greens have been able to make deals for things like the carbon tax.

We get a multiple party ballot.

I dont think compulsory voting has much impact other than more votes.

Ah, gotcha. For some reason I had it in my head you guys were a Federal Republic with a Queen and her Australian regent as Head of State.

I guess what I mean by multiple choice ballot is if you guys get to vote in order of preference. I think some places do that but I'm not sure where. Here, depending on what state you're in, you get more restriction in primaries, but you get to vote for whomever in the general election. For example, here in MA, if the Green Party happens to have party status at that particular time, I must vote for a Green. If the Green Party does not have party status at the time of the primary, I can choose, since I'm technically an independent. I could, theoretically, have said this year, "I want to vote as a Republican" and said, "Fuck Romney, I'm voting for Herman Cain" and then gone on to vote for no Republicans at all in the general election. That's not across the board, just how it works in my state.

You vote however you want.

I ran as a green once, and even then there was nothing stopping me voting for someone else.

The party chooses the representative, not the voters.

That's a pretty interesting feature of Parliamentary Democracies, it seems, is that some group that is not the voting public makes some sort of choice.

In Ireland, the public chooses the President, who is the Head of State, and has state functions similar to the Queen in the UK (a smidge beefed up though in international relations, due to former President Robinson, if I understand Faust correctly), however, the legislature chooses the Taoiseach (Prime Minister), not the voter, and it's the Taoiseach who is head of government.

Here in the US, all politicians get in based on the voting public. Granted, we have the Electoral College which means that the states end up choosing who the President is, but who the states end up choosing is directly informed by who the majority of the voters in the state chose. Which does occasionally lead to weird shit like more Americans overall voting for Al Gore, but the distribution of the votes lead to Dubya winning. Normally that doesn't happen though. The popular vote, which ultimately doesn't make the selection, matches up with electoral votes.
Strange and Terrible Organ Laminator of Yesterday's Heavy Scene
Sentence or sentence fragment pending

Soy El Vaquero Peludo de Oro

TIM AM I, PRIMARY OF THE EXTRA-ATMOSPHERIC SIMIANS

East Coast Hustle

Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on September 08, 2012, 02:00:12 AM
Quote from: Nephew Twiddleton on September 08, 2012, 01:55:12 AM
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on September 08, 2012, 01:48:21 AM
Eh,  what the hell.  Yeah, so Jon Carter ran for Governor a couple of times.  He also crafted an awful policy to ban clearcutting in Maine that not only would've put a chokehold on the timber industry, it also would have lead to massive forest fires because it would've made it illegal to clear slash from legitimate harvesting sites.  It was just stupid wrong policy.  Thankfully, Gov King put a more sensible approach on the ballot to keep it from passing.  Carter is just a gigantic ego-centric assface.

It happens. I think one of the problems that happens with the Greens is that they have a tendency to be absolutists about things, especially when it comes to the environment. They look at it as if quite a bit of necessary human activity must be done away with, and still some how maintain our current technological/cultural trajectory. The thing is, we're not all as lucky as Iceland, which has, for all intents, inexhaustible electricity production, and until we can either make our renewable energy considerably more efficient, or get better fuel economy with petroleum, then things like nuclear are going to have to be necessary as a compromise.


The economy in Maine, as awful as it is, heavily relies on natural resource industries.  Land stewardship is obviously important, but most companies in the lumber and paper industries plan to be around for the long haul, they aren't going to go out of their way to completely decimate their stock, forcing them to close up shop.  Putting the screws to those companies invariably puts the screws to the employees, they are the ones who suffer.  Carter just doesn't get that part of the story.

Fuck the timber companies. They want me to care about what happens to them, they can start staffing their operations in Maine with Mainers instead of canadians.
Rabid Colostomy Hole Jammer of the Coming Apocalypse™

The Devil is in the details; God is in the nuance.


Some yahoo yelled at me, saying 'GIVE ME LIBERTY OR GIVE ME DEATH', and I thought, "I'm feeling generous today.  Why not BOTH?"

Nephew Twiddleton

Quote from: East Coast Hustle on September 08, 2012, 07:43:58 AM
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on September 08, 2012, 02:00:12 AM
Quote from: Nephew Twiddleton on September 08, 2012, 01:55:12 AM
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on September 08, 2012, 01:48:21 AM
Eh,  what the hell.  Yeah, so Jon Carter ran for Governor a couple of times.  He also crafted an awful policy to ban clearcutting in Maine that not only would've put a chokehold on the timber industry, it also would have lead to massive forest fires because it would've made it illegal to clear slash from legitimate harvesting sites.  It was just stupid wrong policy.  Thankfully, Gov King put a more sensible approach on the ballot to keep it from passing.  Carter is just a gigantic ego-centric assface.

It happens. I think one of the problems that happens with the Greens is that they have a tendency to be absolutists about things, especially when it comes to the environment. They look at it as if quite a bit of necessary human activity must be done away with, and still some how maintain our current technological/cultural trajectory. The thing is, we're not all as lucky as Iceland, which has, for all intents, inexhaustible electricity production, and until we can either make our renewable energy considerably more efficient, or get better fuel economy with petroleum, then things like nuclear are going to have to be necessary as a compromise.


The economy in Maine, as awful as it is, heavily relies on natural resource industries.  Land stewardship is obviously important, but most companies in the lumber and paper industries plan to be around for the long haul, they aren't going to go out of their way to completely decimate their stock, forcing them to close up shop.  Putting the screws to those companies invariably puts the screws to the employees, they are the ones who suffer.  Carter just doesn't get that part of the story.

Fuck the timber companies. They want me to care about what happens to them, they can start staffing their operations in Maine with Mainers instead of canadians.

If you tell me that they're illegal Canadian workers, I will love you forever. Because that would just be too awesome.
Strange and Terrible Organ Laminator of Yesterday's Heavy Scene
Sentence or sentence fragment pending

Soy El Vaquero Peludo de Oro

TIM AM I, PRIMARY OF THE EXTRA-ATMOSPHERIC SIMIANS

East Coast Hustle

Not as far as I know, but it's not like there aren't a shit-ton of people in Maine who need jobs.
Rabid Colostomy Hole Jammer of the Coming Apocalypse™

The Devil is in the details; God is in the nuance.


Some yahoo yelled at me, saying 'GIVE ME LIBERTY OR GIVE ME DEATH', and I thought, "I'm feeling generous today.  Why not BOTH?"

Cain

QuoteBut how does it exactly work? During the elections, is it like, ok, we're running against each other but we agree to cooperate with each other against those guys for this particular set of policies until the next election sort of thing? Or is it more, err, ok, so some of us got in, some of you got in, lets see what we can do as far as compromise sort of thing? Or a little of both?

Looking at the UK Parliament since 2010 may be instructive in this regard.

The Lib Dems and Conservatives are in a coalition government, with the Lib Dems having several Cabinet posts, including the post of Deputy Prime Minister, Business Secretary, Energy Secretary and Treasury Secretary (not the same as the Chancellor).  The Tory party retains the key positions of Home Minister, Foreign Secretary and Chancellor, of course, among others.

The two parties discussed areas where they felt they could reach agreement in order to secure the votes to pass their shared agenda.  So taxation for instance, both the Tories and Lib Dems were in agreement on lower taxes for those earning under £10,000 a year.

However, there were significant areas of disagreement.  For instance, the Tory position on student loans was directly the opposite to the Lib Dems, but the Tories refused to budge - they took a gamble, that the Lib Dems would back them rather than collapse the government so soon, and they were right.

As the larger party, with significantly more experience at running government, the Tories have been more successful at pushing their agenda than the Lib Dems have, and it has cost the latter a great deal of political support.  A more aggressive leader of the party could have leveraged their position to get greater concessions from the Tories, but unfortunately, the current leader of the party is a bit...dim.

Each party still runs candidates against each other in local, city and national elections.  They are most certainly not friends, and one strongly suspects if the Tories thought they could rule on their own, they would.  But they cannot, and they know that the Lib Dems are ideologically closer to Labour than them, and that they would block a great deal of legislation in Parliament if they were in opposition.  Therefore, co-opting them was necessary.

Not that it has been especially popular with either party.  Many Lib Dems feel that Nick Clegg has sold them out for a meaningless title and boasting rights (the first Lib Dem leader in government).  Many rightwing Tories feel David Cameron is using the Lib Dems to shore up his own political capital and prevent the right of the party taking power from him, and that he is too in thrall to their agenda.

I'm honestly surprised the whole venture hasn't collapsed yet, though it's only been three years.  There is still time.

AFK

Quote from: East Coast Hustle on September 08, 2012, 07:43:58 AM
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on September 08, 2012, 02:00:12 AM
Quote from: Nephew Twiddleton on September 08, 2012, 01:55:12 AM
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on September 08, 2012, 01:48:21 AM
Eh,  what the hell.  Yeah, so Jon Carter ran for Governor a couple of times.  He also crafted an awful policy to ban clearcutting in Maine that not only would've put a chokehold on the timber industry, it also would have lead to massive forest fires because it would've made it illegal to clear slash from legitimate harvesting sites.  It was just stupid wrong policy.  Thankfully, Gov King put a more sensible approach on the ballot to keep it from passing.  Carter is just a gigantic ego-centric assface.

It happens. I think one of the problems that happens with the Greens is that they have a tendency to be absolutists about things, especially when it comes to the environment. They look at it as if quite a bit of necessary human activity must be done away with, and still some how maintain our current technological/cultural trajectory. The thing is, we're not all as lucky as Iceland, which has, for all intents, inexhaustible electricity production, and until we can either make our renewable energy considerably more efficient, or get better fuel economy with petroleum, then things like nuclear are going to have to be necessary as a compromise.


The economy in Maine, as awful as it is, heavily relies on natural resource industries.  Land stewardship is obviously important, but most companies in the lumber and paper industries plan to be around for the long haul, they aren't going to go out of their way to completely decimate their stock, forcing them to close up shop.  Putting the screws to those companies invariably puts the screws to the employees, they are the ones who suffer.  Carter just doesn't get that part of the story.

Fuck the timber companies. They want me to care about what happens to them, they can start staffing their operations in Maine with Mainers instead of canadians.


Well, accorading to 2011 employment statistics, over 10,000 Mainers were employed by logging and paper companies.  The mill that my Dad works at up North employs only Mainers.
Cynicism is a blank check for failure.

East Coast Hustle

How many of them are employed strictly in logging? Most of the guys who work in the woods are 'nucks. And it's nice that you still have an operating mill up there, but in these parts they're dropping like flies. Millinocket. Brewer. Cutbacks in Bucksport. Is the one in Lincoln operating anymore? I honestly can't remember. Hardly what I would consider a stable career choice for a young mainer these days.
Rabid Colostomy Hole Jammer of the Coming Apocalypse™

The Devil is in the details; God is in the nuance.


Some yahoo yelled at me, saying 'GIVE ME LIBERTY OR GIVE ME DEATH', and I thought, "I'm feeling generous today.  Why not BOTH?"

AFK

Many more of those 10,000 are in paper mills for sure.  And that employment becomes a lot less stable when you have asshats like Carter proposing lunatic forestry restrictions.
Cynicism is a blank check for failure.

East Coast Hustle

Oh, by no means am I agreeing with Carter. Not by a long shot. I'm all for working forests. I'm just for them being worked by Mainers. That's why I haven't spent a dime at an Irving store or gas station in almost 10 years.
Rabid Colostomy Hole Jammer of the Coming Apocalypse™

The Devil is in the details; God is in the nuance.


Some yahoo yelled at me, saying 'GIVE ME LIBERTY OR GIVE ME DEATH', and I thought, "I'm feeling generous today.  Why not BOTH?"

AFK

Round here Irving got out of the convenience stores and they are all run by Circle K now, though the gas definitely is still an Irving product, but I don't buy anything from those place either.  I always try to hit up the local mom and pop places.
Cynicism is a blank check for failure.