Author Topic: Green Canidates on the ballot in several states...  (Read 7316 times)

AFK

  • We all
  • Deserved It
  • ****
  • Posts: 33703
    • View Profile
Green Canidates on the ballot in several states...
« on: September 08, 2012, 01:01:02 am »
Colorado, Oregon, and Washington State, and they're all named Mary Jane funnily enough.

http://www.drugfree.org/join-together/drugs/commentary-marijuana-legalization-takes-center-stage-this-election-season

Quote
With Election Day just around the corner, voters in multiple locations will again be confronted with cannabis-related questions. Seven state legislatures appear to still believe that there is a medical use for marijuana despite a lack of agreement from the medical community. Legislation is pending in each of those states. “Medical marijuana” has simply been the camel’s nose under the tent, with the true goal of legalization covered up with a supposedly scientific approach.
Three states are now getting to the heart of the matter with outright legalization on the table. Colorado’s Amendment 64, the “Regulate Marijuana Like Alcohol Act,” will permit those over 20 to possess, use, display, purchase and transport limited amounts of marijuana. Washington’s Measure 502 would also allow limited possession of marijuana by those over age 20. The Oregon Cannabis Tax Act, Measure 80, would create the Oregon Cannabis Commission to regulate the sale and cultivation of marijuana for those over age 20.

The common argument of course is that this is going to generate all kinds of revenue.  Maine is currently considering terminating the contract responsible for importing liquor and giving that control to the State, so they can lower prices and generate more revenue.  Both of these scenarios of course assume a significant amount of consumption to generate all of those revenues.  What they are all missing is that the increased costs, including lost productivity, increased health care costs, substance related violence, all of that is going to work against, and probably negate, all of that revenue raised.  So the revenue argument, while it will certainly resonate with the public, is a false bill of goods.


All that being said, it's going to be really interesting to see how this plays out.  My money is on at least one of these passing, probably in Oregon or Washington.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2012, 01:07:08 am by Rev. What's-His-Name? »
Cynicism is a blank check for failure.

Nephew Twiddleton

  • Deserved It
  • ****
  • Posts: 20460
  • DEATH METAL ENGLISH
    • View Profile
Strange and Terrible Organ Laminator of Yesterday's Heavy Scene
Sentence or sentence fragment pending

Soy El Vaquero Peludo de Oro

TIM AM I, PRIMARY OF THE EXTRA-ATMOSPHERIC SIMIANS

Nephew Twiddleton

  • Deserved It
  • ****
  • Posts: 20460
  • DEATH METAL ENGLISH
    • View Profile
Re: Green Canidates on the ballot in several states...
« Reply #2 on: September 08, 2012, 01:30:45 am »
Let us talk about the Green Party, since that is what the thread is apparently about.

I was happy to see that out of all of the presidential candidates, I agreed with Dr. Stein the most, disagreeing with her on only one issue, and that is the use of nuclear power, which I think, if used properly, will by necessity become a big part of our energy infrastructure as petroleum dwindles.
Strange and Terrible Organ Laminator of Yesterday's Heavy Scene
Sentence or sentence fragment pending

Soy El Vaquero Peludo de Oro

TIM AM I, PRIMARY OF THE EXTRA-ATMOSPHERIC SIMIANS

Salty

  • Anarcho-Kardashian, Prophet
  • Deserved It
  • ****
  • Posts: 6032
    • View Profile
Re: Green Canidates on the ballot in several states...
« Reply #3 on: September 08, 2012, 01:32:40 am »
 :enough:
The world is a car and you're the crash test dummy.

AFK

  • We all
  • Deserved It
  • ****
  • Posts: 33703
    • View Profile
Re: Green Canidates on the ballot in several states...
« Reply #4 on: September 08, 2012, 01:35:36 am »
Nah, it's about what it's about.  I'm using my Creative Thread Naming License.  It apparently is a hot topic this election season.
Cynicism is a blank check for failure.

Nephew Twiddleton

  • Deserved It
  • ****
  • Posts: 20460
  • DEATH METAL ENGLISH
    • View Profile
Re: Green Canidates on the ballot in several states...
« Reply #5 on: September 08, 2012, 01:39:24 am »
You said Green Party. I'm a Green. I'm going to talk about Greens.

I don't really know a whole lot about Dr. Stein's running mate. Hey, Rev, I seem to recall you saying something about the Greens in Maine being a little looney tunes. Could you expand upon that point?
Strange and Terrible Organ Laminator of Yesterday's Heavy Scene
Sentence or sentence fragment pending

Soy El Vaquero Peludo de Oro

TIM AM I, PRIMARY OF THE EXTRA-ATMOSPHERIC SIMIANS

AFK

  • We all
  • Deserved It
  • ****
  • Posts: 33703
    • View Profile
Re: Green Canidates on the ballot in several states...
« Reply #6 on: September 08, 2012, 01:48:21 am »
Eh,  what the hell.  Yeah, so Jon Carter ran for Governor a couple of times.  He also crafted an awful policy to ban clearcutting in Maine that not only would've put a chokehold on the timber industry, it also would have lead to massive forest fires because it would've made it illegal to clear slash from legitimate harvesting sites.  It was just stupid wrong policy.  Thankfully, Gov King put a more sensible approach on the ballot to keep it from passing.  Carter is just a gigantic ego-centric assface. 
Cynicism is a blank check for failure.

Nephew Twiddleton

  • Deserved It
  • ****
  • Posts: 20460
  • DEATH METAL ENGLISH
    • View Profile
Re: Green Canidates on the ballot in several states...
« Reply #7 on: September 08, 2012, 01:55:12 am »
Eh,  what the hell.  Yeah, so Jon Carter ran for Governor a couple of times.  He also crafted an awful policy to ban clearcutting in Maine that not only would've put a chokehold on the timber industry, it also would have lead to massive forest fires because it would've made it illegal to clear slash from legitimate harvesting sites.  It was just stupid wrong policy.  Thankfully, Gov King put a more sensible approach on the ballot to keep it from passing.  Carter is just a gigantic ego-centric assface.

It happens. I think one of the problems that happens with the Greens is that they have a tendency to be absolutists about things, especially when it comes to the environment. They look at it as if quite a bit of necessary human activity must be done away with, and still some how maintain our current technological/cultural trajectory. The thing is, we're not all as lucky as Iceland, which has, for all intents, inexhaustible electricity production, and until we can either make our renewable energy considerably more efficient, or get better fuel economy with petroleum, then things like nuclear are going to have to be necessary as a compromise.
Strange and Terrible Organ Laminator of Yesterday's Heavy Scene
Sentence or sentence fragment pending

Soy El Vaquero Peludo de Oro

TIM AM I, PRIMARY OF THE EXTRA-ATMOSPHERIC SIMIANS

AFK

  • We all
  • Deserved It
  • ****
  • Posts: 33703
    • View Profile
Re: Green Canidates on the ballot in several states...
« Reply #8 on: September 08, 2012, 01:55:41 am »
Here's the wiki page on him which seems to have been written by him or a surrogate.  It doesn't mention his kooky-ass clearcutting proposal at all, just his campaign against King's version.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Carter_(politician)

In full disclosure, I'm part of King's campaign for Olympia Snowe's Senate seat. 
Cynicism is a blank check for failure.

Nephew Twiddleton

  • Deserved It
  • ****
  • Posts: 20460
  • DEATH METAL ENGLISH
    • View Profile
Re: Green Canidates on the ballot in several states...
« Reply #9 on: September 08, 2012, 01:59:06 am »
Yeah, this bit right here strikes me as partial while attempting to look impartial.

Quote
Unfortunately for Carter, both referendum campaigns were unsuccessful [8].
Strange and Terrible Organ Laminator of Yesterday's Heavy Scene
Sentence or sentence fragment pending

Soy El Vaquero Peludo de Oro

TIM AM I, PRIMARY OF THE EXTRA-ATMOSPHERIC SIMIANS

AFK

  • We all
  • Deserved It
  • ****
  • Posts: 33703
    • View Profile
Re: Green Canidates on the ballot in several states...
« Reply #10 on: September 08, 2012, 02:00:12 am »
Eh,  what the hell.  Yeah, so Jon Carter ran for Governor a couple of times.  He also crafted an awful policy to ban clearcutting in Maine that not only would've put a chokehold on the timber industry, it also would have lead to massive forest fires because it would've made it illegal to clear slash from legitimate harvesting sites.  It was just stupid wrong policy.  Thankfully, Gov King put a more sensible approach on the ballot to keep it from passing.  Carter is just a gigantic ego-centric assface.

It happens. I think one of the problems that happens with the Greens is that they have a tendency to be absolutists about things, especially when it comes to the environment. They look at it as if quite a bit of necessary human activity must be done away with, and still some how maintain our current technological/cultural trajectory. The thing is, we're not all as lucky as Iceland, which has, for all intents, inexhaustible electricity production, and until we can either make our renewable energy considerably more efficient, or get better fuel economy with petroleum, then things like nuclear are going to have to be necessary as a compromise.


The economy in Maine, as awful as it is, heavily relies on natural resource industries.  Land stewardship is obviously important, but most companies in the lumber and paper industries plan to be around for the long haul, they aren't going to go out of their way to completely decimate their stock, forcing them to close up shop.  Putting the screws to those companies invariably puts the screws to the employees, they are the ones who suffer.  Carter just doesn't get that part of the story.
Cynicism is a blank check for failure.

Cain

  • Alea iacta est
  • Chekha
  • Deserved It
  • ****
  • Posts: 63877
    • View Profile
Re: Green Canidates on the ballot in several states...
« Reply #11 on: September 08, 2012, 02:09:18 am »
The thing is, we're not all as lucky as Iceland, which has, for all intents, inexhaustible electricity production, and until we can either make our renewable energy considerably more efficient, or get better fuel economy with petroleum, then things like nuclear are going to have to be necessary as a compromise.

Not true.  America can produce up to four times its current energy requirements in total via offshore wind turbines, assuming sufficient funding for the infratructure.

http://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy10osti/49229.pdf

Quote
The gross resource has been quantified by state, water depth, distance from shore, and wind class throughout a band extending out to 50 nautical miles from the U.S. coastline.

This total gross wind resource is estimated at more than 4,000 GW, or roughly four times the generating capacity currently carried on the U.S. electric grid.

It's quite possible only about, say, 60% of this energy could be effectively harvested.  But that's still more total energy than the US uses currently, all carbon-free and totally renewable.

Including solar power, geothermal power and onshore wind turbines, the USA could easily become a net exporter of energy.

Nephew Twiddleton

  • Deserved It
  • ****
  • Posts: 20460
  • DEATH METAL ENGLISH
    • View Profile
Re: Green Canidates on the ballot in several states...
« Reply #12 on: September 08, 2012, 02:10:40 am »
Eh,  what the hell.  Yeah, so Jon Carter ran for Governor a couple of times.  He also crafted an awful policy to ban clearcutting in Maine that not only would've put a chokehold on the timber industry, it also would have lead to massive forest fires because it would've made it illegal to clear slash from legitimate harvesting sites.  It was just stupid wrong policy.  Thankfully, Gov King put a more sensible approach on the ballot to keep it from passing.  Carter is just a gigantic ego-centric assface.

It happens. I think one of the problems that happens with the Greens is that they have a tendency to be absolutists about things, especially when it comes to the environment. They look at it as if quite a bit of necessary human activity must be done away with, and still some how maintain our current technological/cultural trajectory. The thing is, we're not all as lucky as Iceland, which has, for all intents, inexhaustible electricity production, and until we can either make our renewable energy considerably more efficient, or get better fuel economy with petroleum, then things like nuclear are going to have to be necessary as a compromise.


The economy in Maine, as awful as it is, heavily relies on natural resource industries.  Land stewardship is obviously important, but most companies in the lumber and paper industries plan to be around for the long haul, they aren't going to go out of their way to completely decimate their stock, forcing them to close up shop.  Putting the screws to those companies invariably puts the screws to the employees, they are the ones who suffer.  Carter just doesn't get that part of the story.

I think a lot of Greens don't get that part. While I agree with them, often I am struck by some pretty blatant naivete. Some of the view points treat complex issues as simplistically as the GOP does. Or the Libertarians (the real ones, who I thought were kooks pretty much from the get go). People make extensive use of wood, and fortunately, that IS a renewable resource, and one that we're pretty set on maintaining, pretty much across the board. I don't think you'll find too many people advocating mass arboricide.
Strange and Terrible Organ Laminator of Yesterday's Heavy Scene
Sentence or sentence fragment pending

Soy El Vaquero Peludo de Oro

TIM AM I, PRIMARY OF THE EXTRA-ATMOSPHERIC SIMIANS

Nephew Twiddleton

  • Deserved It
  • ****
  • Posts: 20460
  • DEATH METAL ENGLISH
    • View Profile
Re: Green Canidates on the ballot in several states...
« Reply #13 on: September 08, 2012, 02:12:48 am »
The thing is, we're not all as lucky as Iceland, which has, for all intents, inexhaustible electricity production, and until we can either make our renewable energy considerably more efficient, or get better fuel economy with petroleum, then things like nuclear are going to have to be necessary as a compromise.

Not true.  America can produce up to four times its current energy requirements in total via offshore wind turbines, assuming sufficient funding for the infratructure.

http://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy10osti/49229.pdf

Quote
The gross resource has been quantified by state, water depth, distance from shore, and wind class throughout a band extending out to 50 nautical miles from the U.S. coastline.

This total gross wind resource is estimated at more than 4,000 GW, or roughly four times the generating capacity currently carried on the U.S. electric grid.

It's quite possible only about, say, 60% of this energy could be effectively harvested.  But that's still more total energy than the US uses currently, all carbon-free and totally renewable.

Including solar power, geothermal power and onshore wind turbines, the USA could easily become a net exporter of energy.

Thanks Cain! Now that you mention that, I remember you and Faust discussing it a couple of months ago. Jesus, it's getting easy to forget stuff.

Hopefully, we'll end up setting that sort of thing up- and why not if we can export the energy as well?
Strange and Terrible Organ Laminator of Yesterday's Heavy Scene
Sentence or sentence fragment pending

Soy El Vaquero Peludo de Oro

TIM AM I, PRIMARY OF THE EXTRA-ATMOSPHERIC SIMIANS

AFK

  • We all
  • Deserved It
  • ****
  • Posts: 33703
    • View Profile
Re: Green Canidates on the ballot in several states...
« Reply #14 on: September 08, 2012, 02:15:10 am »
Eh,  what the hell.  Yeah, so Jon Carter ran for Governor a couple of times.  He also crafted an awful policy to ban clearcutting in Maine that not only would've put a chokehold on the timber industry, it also would have lead to massive forest fires because it would've made it illegal to clear slash from legitimate harvesting sites.  It was just stupid wrong policy.  Thankfully, Gov King put a more sensible approach on the ballot to keep it from passing.  Carter is just a gigantic ego-centric assface.

It happens. I think one of the problems that happens with the Greens is that they have a tendency to be absolutists about things, especially when it comes to the environment. They look at it as if quite a bit of necessary human activity must be done away with, and still some how maintain our current technological/cultural trajectory. The thing is, we're not all as lucky as Iceland, which has, for all intents, inexhaustible electricity production, and until we can either make our renewable energy considerably more efficient, or get better fuel economy with petroleum, then things like nuclear are going to have to be necessary as a compromise.


The economy in Maine, as awful as it is, heavily relies on natural resource industries.  Land stewardship is obviously important, but most companies in the lumber and paper industries plan to be around for the long haul, they aren't going to go out of their way to completely decimate their stock, forcing them to close up shop.  Putting the screws to those companies invariably puts the screws to the employees, they are the ones who suffer.  Carter just doesn't get that part of the story.

I think a lot of Greens don't get that part. While I agree with them, often I am struck by some pretty blatant naivete. Some of the view points treat complex issues as simplistically as the GOP does. Or the Libertarians (the real ones, who I thought were kooks pretty much from the get go). People make extensive use of wood, and fortunately, that IS a renewable resource, and one that we're pretty set on maintaining, pretty much across the board. I don't think you'll find too many people advocating mass arboricide.


No, because it wouldn't make any damn sense.  Anyone who really did advocate for that would be a piss-poor, and very unsuccessful, lumberman.
Cynicism is a blank check for failure.