The Porn Princess Rant, Re-Written

[Pope Pixie Pickle]

The OP is a nicely written piece, but it's painted with a pretty broad brush, and the brush seems pretty old to me.  Are people used up by the porn industry?  Some are, mostly fringe elements on both ends (production and talent), but that also sadly happens in "legitimate entertainment", which is a funny term.  The big companies now sign pretty fair deals with most of the girls, and a large portion of them own and operate their own (popular) websites in exchange for promotion of the company's site and material.  Also, girls (not just stars) are paid a LOT more than Roger mentioned for a single 4 hour filming session, and can and do bang out 2 or 3 a day then take months at a time off.  Do some of the talent use drugs?  yes, but so do some of the regular population of planet earth, soo-prise.  It's not, however, the coke-addled industry the movies might have you believe.  It WAS, in the late 70s, but again, so was the rest of the world.

In addition to all of THAT, the talent make the majority of their income touring strip clubs - where they make 100% of what they earn, and brother they earn big.  It is not at all uncommon for girls in the industry to retire after 5 or so years, wealthy, owning things like computer or marketing companies.  Some marry rich Saudi businessmen... and some end up drug-addled prostitutes, but then that happens all around too.

Is porn exploitive, yes.  Is it as bad as it was?  Nope.  Is it as bad as Roger painted?  Not really.

That's my 2 cents.

I can only speak from my own experience, Hoops.  You may well be right, if you're talking about big names.

What you said certainly WAS completely true, before internet age.  That changed everything. And still can happen, but I don't think it's the rule.

ALSO, I should point out that what I stated only really applies in North America... in eastern Europe it can be really really fucking vile.

I'm talking about your low-end shit, here.  Filmed in shitty motels who only say "don't clog up the drains".

Louis Theroux (from the BBC) explored how the internet and file-sharing was causing most female porn stars to supplement their income via prostitution.. As someone who supports the Nordic Model (where the johns get busted and charged, named and shamed and fined, and the women in sex work don't get legal hassles) of dealing with prostitution Hoopla's business model (and the one from the BBC series) still squicks me the hell out.

[Pope Pixie Pickle]

Make good money. Get tested for STD's. Be regarded in this light.

A few choice comments (more at the link):

"haha looks fade and her pussy cant stay tight forever but w/e might as well enjoy her until she becomes a total washed up whore"

"I like seeing her get violated" (5 thumbs up, by the way)

"yeah, its a fact that most pornstars have an IQ of 23″

"Do you think she became a pornstar because her daddy told her to do so? lol, she's dumb as fuck"

SQUICK SQUICK SQUICK SQUICK!  Also where the fuck did the cock punch smiley go?

Thanks for the link, Stella.. I shall be bookmarking that and showing it to my feminist group...

[Pope Pixie Pickle]

So, assuming your thinking about the state of the porn industry open to revision based on a current worker's experience, do you think there is redeemability in the porn industry?

No.  It's still making people a commodity.

However, I am against outlawing it, for reasons which should be pretty fucking obvious, the first of which is I DON'T HAVE THE RIGHT TO TELL CONSENTING ADULTS WHAT THEY CAN'T DO.

And that, too. I don't think outlawing it would do anything but make things worse for the actors.

Agreed...

[Pope Pixie Pickle]

Time frame is well past the 1970's...How accurate is this?
http://www.shelleylubben.com/porn-industry

"Out of about 1,500 performers working in California, 41 people that we know of died from AIDS, suicide, homicide and drug related deaths between 2007 and 2011...

"When the deaths of 129 porn performers over a period of roughly 20 years were analyzed it was discovered that were an unusually large number of premature deaths from such causes as drugs, suicide, murder, alcohol abuse, accidental death, and disease. It was also discovered that the average life expectancy of a porn performer is only 37.43 years whereas the average life expectancy of an American is 78.1 years"

Shelly Lubben does good work, although it's very much so of an Evangelical Christian model. Her own story is heartbreaking. She got Herpes, and insists prayer made it inert. All of the ex-porn workers on her sites find God and end up in the Pink Cross (her organisation) PSA's. 

[Pope Pixie Pickle]

Sometimes people just want to get off without all the mumbo jumbo that comes with interacting with another person.  I'm all behind the idea that people shouldn't be subjugated into situations they don't want to be in, but I will not get behind the idea that pornography in and of itself is wrong.

Erotic art goes back to cave drawings, are you considering all of that inherently wrong?  We haven't brought up gay porn, which I doubt anyone would seriously argue exploits anyone, unless they were vastly out of touch with the genre.  Also wrong?

Not throwing down the gauntlet, just trying to comprehend (and for the record, I'm not in favor of outlawing porn).

People can "get off without all the mumbo jumbo that comes with interacting with another person" by simply masturbating, not sure why porn is necessary for that. 

Erotic art isn't porn.

I know next to nothing about gay porn, so I'm staying out of that one.

Of course erotic art is porn.  And when did "necessary" come into it?  Popcorn isn't necessary to watch a movie, but it's nice.

Art is paint, or ink, nobody had to perform anything. I guess technically you're right, "Hentai porn" is porn, but the general usage refers to real people.

Not sure I would call Hentai "art", though.  But that's subjective.

And popcorn is nice, but if somebody had to get bukaki-ed to make my popcorn, I'd pass.

A lot of written erotica and Hentai feature tropes and themes that I find somewhat disturbing.   Rapey stuff that isn't explicitly laid out as a consensual FANTASY makes me want to puke.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Post clean up bump.

[Anna Mae Bollocks]

Sometimes people just want to get off without all the mumbo jumbo that comes with interacting with another person.  I'm all behind the idea that people shouldn't be subjugated into situations they don't want to be in, but I will not get behind the idea that pornography in and of itself is wrong.

Erotic art goes back to cave drawings, are you considering all of that inherently wrong?  We haven't brought up gay porn, which I doubt anyone would seriously argue exploits anyone, unless they were vastly out of touch with the genre.  Also wrong?

Not throwing down the gauntlet, just trying to comprehend (and for the record, I'm not in favor of outlawing porn).

People can "get off without all the mumbo jumbo that comes with interacting with another person" by simply masturbating, not sure why porn is necessary for that. 

Erotic art isn't porn.

I know next to nothing about gay porn, so I'm staying out of that one.

Of course erotic art is porn.  And when did "necessary" come into it?  Popcorn isn't necessary to watch a movie, but it's nice.

Art is paint, or ink, nobody had to perform anything. I guess technically you're right, "Hentai porn" is porn, but the general usage refers to real people.

Not sure I would call Hentai "art", though.  But that's subjective.

And popcorn is nice, but if somebody had to get bukaki-ed to make my popcorn, I'd pass.

A lot of written erotica and Hentai feature tropes and themes that I find somewhat disturbing.   Rapey stuff that isn't explicitly laid out as a consensual FANTASY makes me want to puke.

Yes, it does. But the alternative would be censoring art.

[Pope Pixie Pickle]

Sometimes people just want to get off without all the mumbo jumbo that comes with interacting with another person.  I'm all behind the idea that people shouldn't be subjugated into situations they don't want to be in, but I will not get behind the idea that pornography in and of itself is wrong.

Erotic art goes back to cave drawings, are you considering all of that inherently wrong?  We haven't brought up gay porn, which I doubt anyone would seriously argue exploits anyone, unless they were vastly out of touch with the genre.  Also wrong?

Not throwing down the gauntlet, just trying to comprehend (and for the record, I'm not in favor of outlawing porn).

People can "get off without all the mumbo jumbo that comes with interacting with another person" by simply masturbating, not sure why porn is necessary for that. 

Erotic art isn't porn.

I know next to nothing about gay porn, so I'm staying out of that one.

Of course erotic art is porn.  And when did "necessary" come into it?  Popcorn isn't necessary to watch a movie, but it's nice.

Art is paint, or ink, nobody had to perform anything. I guess technically you're right, "Hentai porn" is porn, but the general usage refers to real people.

Not sure I would call Hentai "art", though.  But that's subjective.

And popcorn is nice, but if somebody had to get bukaki-ed to make my popcorn, I'd pass.

A lot of written erotica and Hentai feature tropes and themes that I find somewhat disturbing.   Rapey stuff that isn't explicitly laid out as a consensual FANTASY makes me want to puke.

Yes, it does. But the alternative would be censoring art.

I wasn't advocating censorship at all... How did you parse that from that sentence? I just don't like or use the stuff that squicks me out is all..

[Anna Mae Bollocks]

Sometimes people just want to get off without all the mumbo jumbo that comes with interacting with another person.  I'm all behind the idea that people shouldn't be subjugated into situations they don't want to be in, but I will not get behind the idea that pornography in and of itself is wrong.

Erotic art goes back to cave drawings, are you considering all of that inherently wrong?  We haven't brought up gay porn, which I doubt anyone would seriously argue exploits anyone, unless they were vastly out of touch with the genre.  Also wrong?

Not throwing down the gauntlet, just trying to comprehend (and for the record, I'm not in favor of outlawing porn).

People can "get off without all the mumbo jumbo that comes with interacting with another person" by simply masturbating, not sure why porn is necessary for that. 

Erotic art isn't porn.

I know next to nothing about gay porn, so I'm staying out of that one.

Of course erotic art is porn.  And when did "necessary" come into it?  Popcorn isn't necessary to watch a movie, but it's nice.

Art is paint, or ink, nobody had to perform anything. I guess technically you're right, "Hentai porn" is porn, but the general usage refers to real people.

Not sure I would call Hentai "art", though.  But that's subjective.

And popcorn is nice, but if somebody had to get bukaki-ed to make my popcorn, I'd pass.

A lot of written erotica and Hentai feature tropes and themes that I find somewhat disturbing.   Rapey stuff that isn't explicitly laid out as a consensual FANTASY makes me want to puke.

Yes, it does. But the alternative would be censoring art.

I wasn't advocating censorship at all... How did you parse that from that sentence? I just don't like or use the stuff that squicks me out is all..

I didn't parse that, I know you wouldn't advocate that. A lot of people would, though. Over the years I've seen people bitching about a lot of art. That's what the repubs played on when they cut funding for the arts here in the 90's" "Mapplethorp put a CRUCIFIX in a jar of PISS, this is what your TAX DOLLARS are paying for!!!!!"

[LMNO]

Yeah, so.  I like porn.  I suppose that's no surprise.  I've watched a lot of it, and a lot of different kinds.

These kinds of threads make me uncomfortable, which means I've got some thinking to do.

I'm going to admit that I'm most likely deluding myself, but there are a few actresses who really, really give off the impression that they're reasonably happy about their choice of careers.  There are also those who are directing themselves in their scenes, which gives them some control about what they're doing.  I'm thinking about people like Bobbi Starr, Belladonna, and Joanna Angel. 

I know there's a huge amount of porn where both actors are completely dead behind the eyes, and a disturbingly large amount of it is explicitly violent towards women, and there's quite a bit that's more or less geared towards non-consent (they film her saying she's willing, and then do their hardest to make her tap out and quit).  But let me be clear, that doesn't turn me on.

I realize that this is an area where my pride of being a rationalist is threatened; reason would dictate that even if sex-positive pornography existed, it would be a very very small portion of an industry that harms almost everyone who participates in it.  And yet, I watch.

[Anna Mae Bollocks]

Yeah, so.  I like porn.  I suppose that's no surprise.  I've watched a lot of it, and a lot of different kinds.

These kinds of threads make me uncomfortable, which means I've got some thinking to do.

I'm going to admit that I'm most likely deluding myself, but there are a few actresses who really, really give off the impression that they're reasonably happy about their choice of careers.  There are also those who are directing themselves in their scenes, which gives them some control about what they're doing.  I'm thinking about people like Bobbi Starr, Belladonna, and Joanna Angel. 

I know there's a huge amount of porn where both actors are completely dead behind the eyes, and a disturbingly large amount of it is explicitly violent towards women, and there's quite a bit that's more or less geared towards non-consent (they film her saying she's willing, and then do their hardest to make her tap out and quit).  But let me be clear, that doesn't turn me on.

I realize that this is an area where my pride of being a rationalist is threatened; reason would dictate that even if sex-positive pornography existed, it would be a very very small portion of an industry that harms almost everyone who participates in it.  And yet, I watch.

The ones who direct themselves have to start at the bottom, though, don't they?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belladonna_(actress)

[LMNO]

For the most part, yes.


I realize this won't and can't stand up to scrutiny. 

[The Good Reverend Roger]

For the most part, yes.


I realize this won't and can't stand up to scrutiny.

Also realize that nobody is suddenly going to think you're an asshole over this, for the same reason that I don't think you're an asshole for posting that using a piece of electronics made by slave labor.

At least I hope nobody is.  I know I don't.

[Pope Pixie Pickle]

Sometimes people just want to get off without all the mumbo jumbo that comes with interacting with another person.  I'm all behind the idea that people shouldn't be subjugated into situations they don't want to be in, but I will not get behind the idea that pornography in and of itself is wrong.

Erotic art goes back to cave drawings, are you considering all of that inherently wrong?  We haven't brought up gay porn, which I doubt anyone would seriously argue exploits anyone, unless they were vastly out of touch with the genre.  Also wrong?

Not throwing down the gauntlet, just trying to comprehend (and for the record, I'm not in favor of outlawing porn).

People can "get off without all the mumbo jumbo that comes with interacting with another person" by simply masturbating, not sure why porn is necessary for that. 

Erotic art isn't porn.

I know next to nothing about gay porn, so I'm staying out of that one.

Of course erotic art is porn.  And when did "necessary" come into it?  Popcorn isn't necessary to watch a movie, but it's nice.

Art is paint, or ink, nobody had to perform anything. I guess technically you're right, "Hentai porn" is porn, but the general usage refers to real people.

Not sure I would call Hentai "art", though.  But that's subjective.

And popcorn is nice, but if somebody had to get bukaki-ed to make my popcorn, I'd pass.

A lot of written erotica and Hentai feature tropes and themes that I find somewhat disturbing.   Rapey stuff that isn't explicitly laid out as a consensual FANTASY makes me want to puke.

Yes, it does. But the alternative would be censoring art.

I wasn't advocating censorship at all... How did you parse that from that sentence? I just don't like or use the stuff that squicks me out is all..

I didn't parse that, I know you wouldn't advocate that. A lot of people would, though. Over the years I've seen people bitching about a lot of art. That's what the repubs played on when they cut funding for the arts here in the 90's" "Mapplethorp put a CRUCIFIX in a jar of PISS, this is what your TAX DOLLARS are paying for!!!!!"

Yup. In a capitalist system, the best way to deal with that shit is not spend money on it or let it earn money through your actions.. Unfortunately the exploitation cycle is unavoidable if you want to survive in Western society.  The media I consume is one of the few things I do have a say over though...

I hate it when religious conservatives and RadFems club together and work on censorship vis a vis porn, I truly fucking do... It's like they totally forget the whole bodily autonomy and right to choose and it's a slap in the face to the rest of us feminists.   But that's getting into thread drift territory.  (although I will say that me, Signora Paesior, Nigel and Garbo look like meek pussycats compared with that lot..)

Yeah, so.  I like porn.  I suppose that's no surprise.  I've watched a lot of it, and a lot of different kinds.

These kinds of threads make me uncomfortable, which means I've got some thinking to do.

I'm going to admit that I'm most likely deluding myself, but there are a few actresses who really, really give off the impression that they're reasonably happy about their choice of careers.  There are also those who are directing themselves in their scenes, which gives them some control about what they're doing.  I'm thinking about people like Bobbi Starr, Belladonna, and Joanna Angel. 

I know there's a huge amount of porn where both actors are completely dead behind the eyes, and a disturbingly large amount of it is explicitly violent towards women, and there's quite a bit that's more or less geared towards non-consent (they film her saying she's willing, and then do their hardest to make her tap out and quit).  But let me be clear, that doesn't turn me on.

I realize that this is an area where my pride of being a rationalist is threatened; reason would dictate that even if sex-positive pornography existed, it would be a very very small portion of an industry that harms almost everyone who participates in it.  And yet, I watch.

I struggled for about 6 months on that shit, and I will say that initially my sex-drive suffered.  In the end I didn't want to be complicit in it or use porn at all, because not being entirely sure bothers me immensely  I think Dan Savage has plugged a project where you can submit a film with a consent form, and it will be shown at series of events, then destroyed, so it never ends up on teh intarwebs. That's geared towards people who get off on being exhibitionist and are sensible about damage limitation when it comes to careers and loved ones, and theoretically would only really be done by people who have the financial means and inclination.... It's better, but not perfect by any means, and does fuck all good if you don't live within a decent distance of Seattle and want to watch it.

For the most part, yes.


I realize this won't and can't stand up to scrutiny. 

It's hard to change the habits of half a lifetime, and oftentimes in our society we consume without thinking of the ripple effects of out collective minor actions.

For the most part, yes.


I realize this won't and can't stand up to scrutiny.

Also realize that nobody is suddenly going to think you're an asshole over this, for the same reason that I don't think you're an asshole for posting that using a piece of electronics made by slave labor.

At least I hope nobody is.  I know I don't.

I won't.  Being aware of the damage is a step further than a lot of people even think about.

As much as I'm loving the conversation I'm going to have to head on out now and I have Important Shit To Be Getting On With tomorrow, so I shall catch you spags later..

[P3nT4gR4m]

Porn comes to us via exploitation and misery. So does most manufactured goods nowadays. The gas that goes in our cars comes via bombing women and children. Drugs come via organised crime but most people are comfortable with that. Pron, however is worse because it's to do with sex and catholic guilt and badwrong.

I'm not saying most porn isn't unethical what I'm saying is, in my mind at least, it's no more unethical than most of the other shit we consume, once you don't have a bug in your ass aboout sex.