The Porn Princess Rant, Re-Written

[LMNO]

Ok, I think I'm getting it. In a strictly theoretical sense, there shouldn't be anything intrinsically worse between doing porn and working a shitty office job; and its the societal sex-negativity that stigmatizes pornstars.

And in fact, there are indeed small niche markets that feature sex or other adult behavior at a level of consent more or less consistent with the level of consent of working at a shitty office job. 

People who are interested in these niche markets are in luck in the UNLIMITED DATA age-- there seems to be more of it around, more then ever. You might even get the impression that the industry is changing, and TGRRs scenario is now the exception, rather than the norm.

But in truth, just as the niche market has grown, the industry has exploded in size. And while the theory is nice, the actual majority of the industry is still pretty horrible. Otherwise, the average pornstar wouldn't have a lower life expectancy than the shitty office worker.

[Verbal Mike]

Ok, I think I'm getting it. In a strictly theoretical sense, there shouldn't be anything intrinsically worse between doing porn and working a shitty office job; and its the societal sex-negativity that stigmatizes pornstars.

And in fact, there are indeed small niche markets that feature sex or other adult behavior at a level of consent more or less consistent with the level of consent of working at a shitty office job. 

People who are interested in these niche markets are in luck in the UNLIMITED DATA age-- there seems to be more of it around, more then ever. You might even get the impression that the industry is changing, and TGRRs scenario is now the exception, rather than the norm.

But in truth, just as the niche market has grown, the industry has exploded in size. And while the theory is nice, the actual majority of the industry is still pretty horrible. Otherwise, the average pornstar wouldn't have a lower life expectancy than the shitty office worker.

THIS.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

But in truth, just as the niche market has grown, the industry has exploded in size. And while the theory is nice, the actual majority of the industry is still pretty horrible. Otherwise, the average pornstar wouldn't have a lower life expectancy than the shitty office worker.

For every porn company that actually has policies for HIV testing (ineffectual, reactive ones at that) and drug use, there are a dozen using "burners" (cheap apartments/hotel rooms) in which conditions and behavior can get very, very bad indeed.

But it's not as bad as, say, translating or stenography.

[Dildo Argentino]

Ok, I think I'm getting it. In a strictly theoretical sense, there shouldn't be anything intrinsically worse between doing porn and working a shitty office job; and its the societal sex-negativity that stigmatizes pornstars.

And in fact, there are indeed small niche markets that feature sex or other adult behavior at a level of consent more or less consistent with the level of consent of working at a shitty office job. 

People who are interested in these niche markets are in luck in the UNLIMITED DATA age-- there seems to be more of it around, more then ever. You might even get the impression that the industry is changing, and TGRRs scenario is now the exception, rather than the norm.

But in truth, just as the niche market has grown, the industry has exploded in size. And while the theory is nice, the actual majority of the industry is still pretty horrible. Otherwise, the average pornstar wouldn't have a lower life expectancy than the shitty office worker.

As I said:

"And I am saying that the reason the sex-worker field is so high-risk is probably to do with the fact that as a culture we are seriously hung-up about sex, meaning that sexually entirely healthy and well-adjusted individuals are few and far between. So I see the solution as two-fold: reform sex-education and attitudes to sex (will take bloody ages, Wilhelm Reich is turning in his grave), and in the meantime, come down on the crocodiles with the full force of the law, as hard as it gets (I'm all in favour of that). But I can imagine a less sexually-hung-up culture still with room for sex-work, which does not inherently need to be exploitative, even if most of it is, right now."

And thank you.

Also: where do you get those life-expectancy figures? And how?

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Ok, I think I'm getting it. In a strictly theoretical sense, there shouldn't be anything intrinsically worse between doing porn and working a shitty office job; and its the societal sex-negativity that stigmatizes pornstars.

And in fact, there are indeed small niche markets that feature sex or other adult behavior at a level of consent more or less consistent with the level of consent of working at a shitty office job. 

People who are interested in these niche markets are in luck in the UNLIMITED DATA age-- there seems to be more of it around, more then ever. You might even get the impression that the industry is changing, and TGRRs scenario is now the exception, rather than the norm.

But in truth, just as the niche market has grown, the industry has exploded in size. And while the theory is nice, the actual majority of the industry is still pretty horrible. Otherwise, the average pornstar wouldn't have a lower life expectancy than the shitty office worker.

As I said:

"And I am saying that the reason the sex-worker field is so high-risk is probably to do with the fact that as a culture we are seriously hung-up about sex, meaning that sexually entirely healthy and well-adjusted individuals are few and far between. So I see the solution as two-fold: reform sex-education and attitudes to sex (will take bloody ages, Wilhelm Reich is turning in his grave), and in the meantime, come down on the crocodiles with the full force of the law, as hard as it gets (I'm all in favour of that). But I can imagine a less sexually-hung-up culture still with room for sex-work, which does not inherently need to be exploitative, even if most of it is, right now.

And thank you.

Yeah, all we need is to, you know, UTTERLY CHANGE HUMAN NATURE WORLD-WIDE, and things will be just peachy.

[Dildo Argentino]

But it's not as bad as, say, translating or stenography.

Exactly. Or Discordianism.

[Dildo Argentino]

Yeah, all we need is to, you know, UTTERLY CHANGE HUMAN NATURE WORLD-WIDE, and things will be just peachy.

Well did you not know this? Why bother then? And it can be peachy before then, only you need to be kind of secretive and cautious about it.

Seriously now, for the record, though:

Being the fucking hippy that I am, I pretty much let the six kids I take care of roam free. There is one rule I am trying to get across, it's

"Use your head!"

On the rare occasions that they request elucidation, it tends to go like this:

"Coercion is bad. Exploitation is bad. Cooperation is good. Use of force is last resort. Talk about your shit with people you trust. Consider your options. Sleep enough. Eat some greens, for fuck's sake. Do some washing up, please."

So I am sorry to let on, I am not racist, not sexist and not agist. I am on the other hand, a guitarist, a pianist and a cyclist. Show decorum.

[LMNO]

Ok, I think I'm getting it. In a strictly theoretical sense, there shouldn't be anything intrinsically worse between doing porn and working a shitty office job; and its the societal sex-negativity that stigmatizes pornstars.

And in fact, there are indeed small niche markets that feature sex or other adult behavior at a level of consent more or less consistent with the level of consent of working at a shitty office job. 

People who are interested in these niche markets are in luck in the UNLIMITED DATA age-- there seems to be more of it around, more then ever. You might even get the impression that the industry is changing, and TGRRs scenario is now the exception, rather than the norm.

But in truth, just as the niche market has grown, the industry has exploded in size. And while the theory is nice, the actual majority of the industry is still pretty horrible. Otherwise, the average pornstar wouldn't have a lower life expectancy than the shitty office worker.

As I said:

"And I am saying that the reason the sex-worker field is so high-risk is probably to do with the fact that as a culture we are seriously hung-up about sex, meaning that sexually entirely healthy and well-adjusted individuals are few and far between. So I see the solution as two-fold: reform sex-education and attitudes to sex (will take bloody ages, Wilhelm Reich is turning in his grave), and in the meantime, come down on the crocodiles with the full force of the law, as hard as it gets (I'm all in favour of that). But I can imagine a less sexually-hung-up culture still with room for sex-work, which does not inherently need to be exploitative, even if most of it is, right now."

And thank you.

Also: where do you get those life-expectancy figures? And how?

Please tell me you didn't just say, "Things would be better if everyone was nicer to each other."


And the life expectancy stats are upthread. 



[edit: upon further review (a quick google search), the stats upthread may be biased.  Full disclosure.]

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Life expectancy rates are always fucked up because of infant mortality rates.

I believe I shall go in the other room and scream for a bit.

[Dildo Argentino]

Please tell me you didn't just say, "Things would be better if everyone was nicer to each other."

Of course not! I was talking, very specifically about sexual hang-ups (social ones and individual ones). There is variation in this across cultures and across individuals, so there is clearly room for non-utopistic improvement: after all, we are now considerably less hung up about sex than say when it was completely taboo during the rule of Catholicism, no?

[Luna]

You do realize that every time you refer to your job as "prostitution" or "FLP," your credibility circles the bowl another time, right?

Unless your back problems are caused by being bent over a desk and used however your client likes it while you're working, it's not even close.

[Pope Pixie Pickle]

Mine is not a puritan bias at all, and more of a socialist worker's rights bias, and a feminist bias. If there is no dire financial need, someone is a hardcore exhibitionist and really wants to film themselves fucking and has agency to do this or anything else to make money, then I'm cool with it. I'm just pretty sure this example is pretty unicorn-like, and do not wish for my money or revenue generated from advertising related to my usage of free sites to further the exploitative parts of the industry.  If I ever watch anything like that I want to be 100% sure that the performers have agency and that there is genuine enthusiastic consent. If you add to the serious lack of focus on genuine female pleasure in a majority of porn to the too often racist and misogynistic attitudes in the films then I'm out.

What I don't want to be complicit in is this kind of event. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lara_Roxx, who in a double anal scene caught HIV after being in porn for 2 months.

What is also unicorn-like are these kinds of requirements for exploitation, and what makes it special is its sex. Are you as concerned about your local corporation's management serious lack of focus on their employees enjoying their work? Probably not, because sex work is different. Are you as concerned about health care providers, law enforcement, etc. getting HIV through needlestick injuries - and have this same standard that this should NEVER happen? It wouldn't make sense. But, why does it make sense here rather than some basic common sense protocol for preventing transmission? No, instead, the solution is how about we just try abstinence. You don't really NEED to have sex, after all. That dog's not going to hunt.

The bottom line is that human sexuality is filled with all kinds of dark, horry desires. And while there's a place for feminist critique, the place for it isn't in evaluating other people's kink or trying to fence it in so that its safe. It's never going to be safe.

So you're only going to address the individual components, and ignore the social aspects entirely?

If you want to offer up a social theory about the negative effects of pornography, I'm all ears. But, this thread thus far, unless I missed something, didn't have much of one. I think my comment above gets to my first thoughts on the matter. Social control of an individual's sexuality, beyond the kinds of obvious things such as consent and getting more into the realm of feminist critique of allowing or disallowing certain desires as approved or not approved, is not generally something I'd want to endorse.

Everything turns some part of you into a commidity.  A carpenter sells his skills.  A scientist sells his knowledge.  Prostitutes and porn stars sell their own persons.

As long as it isn't something "special", then that's great. One of my objections here is that it often is treated as special. Commodify a woman's work at the check out counter? Great. As soon as she decides to make some money by lifting her skirt and making her vagina the center of her work rather than her arms, then it's all sisters of the world unite. Maybe this is right, but I'm not a woman. So, maybe there's a lot going on here I don't understand.

I think your view is pretty simplistic. Me and Nigel are by no means sex-negative about people's kinks, or taking a puritan standpoint.  There's a large quantity of porn that is violent or racist, showing unsafe practices that those who use it as a primary source of sex-ed is endangering the health of both the people creating or consuming porn.  NO LUBE AND PRACTICE BEFORE WHOLE COCK GOES INTO BUTTHOLE! THAT'S FINE! PUTTING SAID UNCONDOM-ED POOP-FLAVOURED COCK INTO MOUTH OR PUSSY! THAT'S ALSO FINE! All of these activities carry a really high risk factor.  if porn took it's educational potential seriously, maybe we'd HAVE a better attitude towards sex. This is probably linked to society's poor attitude towards sex, and YMMV, pretty fucking degrading.  The time balance given to showing certain sexual acts, for instance.. dollars to fucking donuts your' lucky if a cunnilingus scene lasts a fifth of the blowjob scenes, (and to me they look fucking incompetent!) a lot of the positions, from a woman's perspective, seemingly are just strenuous and don't really look like they'd do much for a woman.    There are sites called things like "18 and Abused", and those young women do not look like they are enjoying themselves, quite the opposite. Mainstream porn in it's presentation is very unbalanced, and mostly gives women a raw deal.

Maybe you don't understand agency or enthusiastic consent, wanting to expect a decent health and safety procedure at work is something we all get. Why is it different for porn? If a person worked in a lab and was stuck with a diseased needle, they would get some kind of compensation, maybe, and won't be told that you let a couple of dudes stick their cocks up your ass and that your a slut who deserved it. The gulf in attitudes is immense, and due to the fact that a lot of troubled or poor young women make up the vast majority of those in the sex industries and get there because of a lack of other options, then yes, a feminist critique of the industry IS needed.

In the world outside sex work, you can't put sex-work on your cv or resume, thus leaving a lot of people at a disadvantage, and stuck in the industry. I'm not approving or disapproving of people fucking on camera.  I'm not disapproving of people having power play scenarios, if both people are into it and proper concern for health and well-being are taken into consideration.

[Dildo Argentino]

You do realize that every time you refer to your job as "prostitution" or "FLP," your credibility circles the bowl another time, right?

No. Does it? I mean, I described the similarities I see, I also made it very clear that I don't see them as identical, far from it... so why? The essence of prostitution, for me (and I am very willing to use a different word for this, only I haven't found one) is doing something purely because someone will pay for it. Not because I enjoy it, not because it interests me, not because I think I may learn from it, not because I am doing it as a favour for someone else... purely, and simply, because someone will give me money for it and I need money to survive.

What would you call that?

[Luna]

You do realize that every time you refer to your job as "prostitution" or "FLP," your credibility circles the bowl another time, right?

No. Does it? I mean, I described the similarities I see, I also made it very clear that I don't see them as identical, far from it... so why? The essence of prostitution, for me (and I am very willing to use a different word for this, only I haven't found one) is doing something purely because someone will pay for it. Not because I enjoy it, not because it interests me, not because I think I may learn from it, not because I am doing it as a favour for someone else... purely, and simply, because someone will give me money for it and I need money to survive.

What would you call that?

I'd call it a "job."  Or "work."

[The Good Reverend Roger]

You do realize that every time you refer to your job as "prostitution" or "FLP," your credibility circles the bowl another time, right?

No. Does it? I mean, I described the similarities I see, I also made it very clear that I don't see them as identical, far from it... so why? The essence of prostitution, for me (and I am very willing to use a different word for this, only I haven't found one) is doing something purely because someone will pay for it. Not because I enjoy it, not because it interests me, not because I think I may learn from it, not because I am doing it as a favour for someone else... purely, and simply, because someone will give me money for it and I need money to survive.

What would you call that?

I'd call it a "job."  Or "work."

Which is totally the same as prostitution, because there's no room at all between "fucking off all day with no responsibilities" and "sucking dick in the alley behind the neighborhood bar".