Wage Slavery

[Dildo Argentino]

Okay, I guess I just don't see the sense of redefining "prostitution" to cover essentially what is covered by "wage labor", since some highly impressive minds have already done a pretty good job of illustrating how awful the latter is (at least as far back as Marx), all while the former adds on a couple special layers of awful that should be differentiated from the normal kind of awful.

Okay, I can see how I was sliding towards that comparison (wage slavery in general versus wage slavery in the sex industry), and indeed, such a redefinition would be pointless, you are absolutely right.

However, firstly: I think most people don't work with a totally alienated attitude. They may think that they would stop doing what they do if they won the lottery (though not everyone does), but they do attach some importance to their work in addition to its financial reward. I'm sure many people are even right about this, while others are wrong about it, but refuse to face the cognitive dissonance.

And there is also something more interesting going on there, I think. First of all, let me state for the record that all in all I am happy with my situation, though I've been wishing to change it in the near to medium future for longer than I care to remember (I've painted myself into a difficult corner), and I am certainly not exploited. Not by others, and not (any longer) by me. Still, I believe transfer of the term 'prostitution' from doing sex for money to the kind of work I do has some justification over and above my opinions about the debiliating effects of wage slavery/alienated labour.

The kind of free-lance competence-rental business that I run and also serve as the sole asset of (okay, I also need computer and internet to work), which happens to be translating diverse shit I am not interested in at all (again, there is a marginal benefit of knowing quite a lot but really not that much about a very diverse set of fields, but I tend to acquire that when I'm not working, anyway, only the set of fields is much more to my liking), but which could also be free-lance copywriting, free-lance commercial graphic art, free-lance performing art etc., has a number of other qualities that make it similar to work in the sex industry:

1. Lack of a reliable time-table. I read on this board about enjoying Saturday nights: well I enjoy my Saturday nights as much as the next fool along, but more often then not I don't actually know when my next Saturday night is going to happen: it can be tomorrow, or it can be next Tuesday morning, depending on the calls I get and the jobs I accept from punters. On average, I get one or two Saturday nights per week, possibly even slightly more. But sometimes I don't get any for 3 or 4 weeks, and sometimes my life becomes devoid of paid work for similar periods, which begins to hurt after a week or two. The whole thing has far from trivial lifestyle effects, and I know people who have become quite dysfunctional over failing to handle that.

2. The temptation of self-exploitation. "If I can do 3 shoots a week, why can't I do 5 and treat myself to something really nice with all that cash" - this could be a mid-career thought in the head of our poor porn princess. "If I can translate a hundred thousand characters in the next 78 hours, then surely I can translate thirty thousand more, the guy's offering triple money, besides, if I do him now, he is likely to come back for more" - is the sort of idea I need to deal with on a regular basis. It is a hard decision to make when winter is coming, we have a gas boiler driving the central heating and the price of gas is up.

3. The danger of a pretence of delayed gratification masking serious (or not so serious, but still) damage to self, to health, to social relationships: "this guy is asking me to do something pretty gross, but if I can keep this up for another month, I'll have enough to take a six-month break somewhere really nice to invent the rest of my life..." - or: "my wife's stressed out, I've not had time to pick up a guitar for weeks, I don't remember the last time I had anything like a conversation with any of the kids, my friends don't call anymore, but I am on a roll, if I have the discipline to do consistent work 10 hours a day for the next three weeks, I'll get a packet that will buy me some leisure to catch up with all those things... now that I have some leisure, I'm so fucking tired I can only work off my sleep deficit and laze about for a week or two, by which time it transpires that more money is needed and there's a decent job being offered". Something like that was part of the reason the mother of my three boys left me. I'm sure I don't wish I could have been be a sex-slave instead, but it did traumatise lives and was horrifically painful. I've never been a self-harmer, but on two occasions I dug sizable chunks out of my knee with my nails. My fifteen-year-old son told me a few days ago that he is finally coming out of denial and is beginning to accept that he's been depressed for the last four years, since the divorce and has only been getting better over the last year. (Sorry to be such an attention whore, I must stop that.)

And I'd wager that in any culture on earth, there's a basic difference between sex and other stuff, which you can notice with the next thought experiment: would you feel very weird about doing X for a friend in need, assuming you have the time and energy to do it and neither dearly love nor strongly dislike said friend? Substitute X with sex to their liking on the one hand, or any other activity (translation, writing, lifting furniture, etc.)  on the other.
While cultural hang-ups regarding sex probably make the difference bigger than it has to be, I'm willing to bet there's a difference, universally, in every human culture that ever existed.

Okay, the thought-experiment is a nice touch and I fully agree. But I think the "special status of sex" is extremely varied across cultures and across individuals. And the hang-ups do cause most of the demand for the sex-industry, I think.


Also, I have known some people who, while proceeding more carefully than when helping someone to move house, would actually proceed with sex in place of 'X'. Are they Bad People^TM? I don't think so. What can we say about the privileged status of sex in the life of hairless apes? A great deal, I am sure. Other thread?

Yes, and the fact that people are choosing to explore, in-depth, whether there aren't relevant differences between translation services and porn (there are, obviously) rather than laying out a clear and concise argument about what qualities make porn exploitative to the point that there is moral obligation on the part of the consumer/viewer to not support it, speaks volumes.

That's like a Snide Comment^TM, right? But actually, the compare-and-contrast job I am trying to do here is, in my irritatingly divergent and roundabout manner, an attempt at figuring out what gives the sex industry it's (you have to admit, I think, do you?) very particular flavour of nasty. I think some of the ingredients are sex-related, but others are not, and are shared by some (but not all) other types of work.

...it brings up an important question about how porn stacks up, exploitation-wise, relative to other common options. Presumably, people working in porn know that there are dish-washing jobs, dependency situations where you can get taken out or help paying bills in exchange for sex, etc. and they chose porn. What do they do, if we imagine your porn is limited to X Discordian approved levels of exploitation, when these jobs don't exist? Dish-washing? If so, why don't they choose dish-washing now? Could it be they see porn as a better option? And when we think about that for a moment, doesn't a seem that a lot of this discussion is basically a soft form of paternalism. Hey kid, you're not smart enough to know what's best for you. Let *me* do your thinking for you. Are you folks comfortable with that?

Valid comment, I think. So far not addressed.

It stands to reason that only fucked up, perverted, evil and badwrong people will seek work in this industry of vice and horror. People like that don't wash dishes for a living. People like that eat children and take drugs.

The satyrical sentiment brings tears of concord to mine eyes.

Babboonery, ITT.

Yep! 

LMNO, thank you for the advice. I don't see what not referencing this thread would achieve? Apart from that, if you still think this is no longer relevant enough to the OP (I think it kind of is, but not vitally), I'd be happy to move. Can I do that myself, and if yes, how?

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Jesus H Christ.

[Dildo Argentino]

Jesus H Christ.

Okay, I missed the last three or four. How do I go about repairing the damage?

Or, seeing as you have the thread-splitter all ready and oiled up, would you be so kind as to... please?

[Dildo Argentino]

Thanks very much.

[LMNO]

Holist, that reads as a very well-thought out philosophical argument.

However, it really is miles away from the reality of the situation.  You may want to read up on The Barstool Experiment for now.  This board tends to deal with things in a pragmatic, rather than idealistic, way.  If what you're proposing doesn't reflect the reality, all the reality of a situation, then you are mistaking the map for the territory.

[Dildo Argentino]

Holist, that reads as a very well-thought out philosophical argument.

However, it really is miles away from the reality of the situation.  You may want to read up on The Barstool Experiment for now.  This board tends to deal with things in a pragmatic, rather than idealistic, way.  If what you're proposing doesn't reflect the reality, all the reality of a situation, then you are mistaking the map for the territory.

No disrespect, but I really do not get what you are getting at. To the point of actually doubting that you read what is now the OP instead of just skimming it quickly.

It is not philosophical: it is subjective, emotional in places and rhetorical as well (a well-thought-out philosophical argument needs to be practically devoid of those). And, the reality of which situation? The situation of the Porn Princess^TM? The situation of, heaven forbid, people who take a lucrative brief dip into the sex industry and come out without major scars? The situation of those (I agree they must be unicorn-ish, but 7 billion is like a lot) who actually find a fulfilling profession in it? The situation of consumers of porn? The situation of people who, while not actually using their genitals to work, feel that they are prostituting themselves to a certain extent? It seemed, earlier, that discussion of the degree to which the OP's highly emotionally charged story was representative of the sex industry was deemed on-topic, along with discussion about whether the conclusion of Roger's OP (you know, porn is commodification of people, and - as such, or perhaps due to the additional features of sex-work, intrinsically, morally bad) is actually true or perhaps not.

I read the barstool experiment, and I honestly don't think it's relevant here. To me, getting these things straight is vitally important. And I have long learnt that its incredibly rare to stumble on something that is vitally important to me but nobody else.

[tyrannosaurus vex]

Holist, that reads as a very well-thought out philosophical argument.

However, it really is miles away from the reality of the situation.  You may want to read up on The Barstool Experiment for now.  This board tends to deal with things in a pragmatic, rather than idealistic, way.  If what you're proposing doesn't reflect the reality, all the reality of a situation, then you are mistaking the map for the territory.

No disrespect, but I really do not get what you are getting at. To the point of actually doubting that you read what is now the OP instead of just skimming it quickly.

It is not philosophical: it is subjective, emotional in places and rhetorical as well (a well-thought-out philosophical argument needs to be practically devoid of those). And, the reality of which situation? The situation of the Porn Princess^TM? The situation of, heaven forbid, people who take a lucrative brief dip into the sex industry and come out without major scars? The situation of those (I agree they must be unicorn-ish, but 7 billion is like a lot) who actually find a fulfilling profession in it? The situation of consumers of porn? The situation of people who, while not actually using their genitals to work, feel that they are prostituting themselves to a certain extent? It seemed, earlier, that discussion of the degree to which the OP's highly emotionally charged story was representative of the sex industry was deemed on-topic, along with discussion about whether the conclusion of Roger's OP (you know, porn is commodification of people, and - as such, or perhaps due to the additional features of sex-work, intrinsically, morally bad) is actually true or perhaps not.

I read the barstool experiment, and I honestly don't think it's relevant here. To me, getting these things straight is vitally important. And I have long learnt that its incredibly rare to stumble on something that is vitally important to me but nobody else.

1. The porn discussion had covered all the points you raised by the time you arrived to the conversation, and much of the heat you got was because people are annoyed by someone who wants to retrace steps through known territory. You raised no new points, and people were uninterested in rehashing the same conversation that just took place. Furthermore, you were being borderline obstinate in your remarks which doesn't work out very well.

2. Everyone is already familiar with the figurative use of "prostitute" to mean anyone who must do something uncomfortable for a living. Your insistence on this as if it is not something already well established causes people to question your motive. There's no additional equation to be made beyond the superficial, figurative sense of the word. There is no equality between experiences, so stop trying to create one.

3. PDCOM, Inc., or one of its various subsidiaries, will be happy to reimburse you for the cost of the boot you have apparently lost inside the carcass of this horse, but you're going to have to step away from the horse to receive the compensation.

[Verbal Mike]

I find the now-OP mostly thoughtful and sensible, especially the part between the two quotes (of me .)
And I'm sorry to hear about how your wage slavery has hurt you and the people around you. It sounds truly awful.
I could go on about what my mother does to set limits to her self-exploitation as a translator but it seems you are aware of what you can and cannot do, so I won't go on about it unless you ask me to.

And I'd wager that in any culture on earth, there's a basic difference between sex and other stuff, which you can notice with the next thought experiment: would you feel very weird about doing X for a friend in need, assuming you have the time and energy to do it and neither dearly love nor strongly dislike said friend? Substitute X with sex to their liking on the one hand, or any other activity (translation, writing, lifting furniture, etc.)  on the other.
While cultural hang-ups regarding sex probably make the difference bigger than it has to be, I'm willing to bet there's a difference, universally, in every human culture that ever existed.

Okay, the thought-experiment is a nice touch and I fully agree. But I think the "special status of sex" is extremely varied across cultures and across individuals. And the hang-ups do cause most of the demand for the sex-industry, I think.


Also, I have known some people who, while proceeding more carefully than when helping someone to move house, would actually proceed with sex in place of 'X'. Are they Bad People^TM? I don't think so. What can we say about the privileged status of sex in the life of hairless apes? A great deal, I am sure. Other thread?

The point was not in any way whatsoever that someone is a Bad Person. The point is only that sex is universally special to our species, and its commodification is, as a result, fundamentally different from the commodification of other aspects of a human being.
The greater point is, again, that while wage slavery is badwrong, when it is combined with sex – including and in some ways especially on camera – it's a whole different breed of badwrong.
Hence my personal irritation at your line of argumentation looking for the commonalities between porn work and other forms of wage slavery in a thread devoted to the specific evils associated with porn work.

Apart from that, I don't feel I have much to add. You don't have to convince me that being a freelancer is tough, nor that being a wage slave of any other kind is tough. I'm with you on that, and I think most of the people here are.

It's also worth mentioning that this community has had some very recent, very bad experience with discussions about Who Has It Worse, in the line of patriarchy/kyriarchy threads that preceded the porn thread. I think that might help you understand the irritation some have displayed, including myself.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

All prostitutes are happy people.  I've seen it in movies.  Sort of like how all London children are loveable scamps and Uncle Albert was that way because he was HAPPY, not ON DRUGS.

[Dildo Argentino]

1. The porn discussion had covered all the points you raised by the time you arrived to the conversation, and much of the heat you got was because people are annoyed by someone who wants to retrace steps through known territory. You raised no new points, and people were uninterested in rehashing the same conversation that just took place. Furthermore, you were being borderline obstinate in your remarks which doesn't work out very well.

2. Everyone is already familiar with the figurative use of "prostitute" to mean anyone who must do something uncomfortable for a living. Your insistence on this as if it is not something already well established causes people to question your motive. There's no additional equation to be made beyond the superficial, figurative sense of the word. There is no equality between experiences, so stop trying to create one.

3. PDCOM, Inc., or one of its various subsidiaries, will be happy to reimburse you for the cost of the boot you have apparently lost inside the carcass of this horse, but you're going to have to step away from the horse to receive the compensation.

That is oh so magnanimious and lenient of you, and it would be so great to step away from the horse and claim my reward, except... it's not actually true.

I'm often guilty of being vague and roundabout in the way I manage to write things down. Hopefully, that will improve with practice.

However,  right now I think it is very clear that:

1. My suggestion that there are similarities between working in the sex-industry and working in freelance brain-leasing (or person-leasing, as in the performing arts) beyond both being forms of wage-slavery had not been discussed in the porn discussion before I introduced it, and neither was my suggestion following from it, namely that the question of what makes sex-work somehow icky and how much of that is that specific to sex-work only is unclear and worthy of investigation.

2. I was, despite everyone being familiar with the figurative use of the word, told off for using it that way. Also, I offered arguments as to why there are parallels, similarities ("equality" was a straw man, I did not claim that, closest I came was "not all that different"). You state that "there is no additional equation to be made beyond the superficial, figurative use of the word". Please argue, and shoot down my arguments, or just give up (walk away from the horse you don't even want to kick anymore).

3.      I refuse to believe that you (or anyone) can actually speak for "PDCOM, Inc., or one of its various subsidiaries".

And the 33% extra free: I was talking to 4 other people. And Roger. When suggested, I came over here. What's it to you, really? 

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Also, about your work, Holist...This is the best of all possible worlds, so it follows that you are getting the best wage and conditions you could possibly get.  Be happy.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

And I wrote you rant for you. 

[Dildo Argentino]

All prostitutes are happy people.  I've seen it in movies.  Sort of like how all London children are loveable scamps and Uncle Albert was that way because he was HAPPY, not ON DRUGS.

As I said, and Roger. And a half. 

I'm off to read a rant.

I'm between tricks, but will be up most of the night.

Your Friendly Neighbourhood Happy Prostitute^TM

[Dildo Argentino]

Also, about your work, Holist...This is the best of all possible worlds, so it follows that you are getting the best wage and conditions you could possibly get.  Be happy.

Quite right, that. Only the world is changing, always changing. And I can choose to have some say in it.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Also, about your work, Holist...This is the best of all possible worlds, so it follows that you are getting the best wage and conditions you could possibly get.  Be happy.

Quite right, that. Only the world is changing, always changing. And I can choose to have some say in it.

It can't change.  If it's the best of all possible worlds, change would be by definition BAD.