Wage Slavery

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

So what you want to talk about is not what factors in society contribute to sex-work being uniquely eroding to the psyche, but about alienation, which sex-work generally has in common with other soul-crushing jobs?

So, why insist on borrowing terms, unless your thesis isn't strong enough on its own, using the appropriate vocabulary?

First of all, I don't exactly have a thesis, I'm looking for one in an exploratory sort of manner. Is that not allowed?

And: what I want to talk about is the composition of factors that make sex-work uniquely eroding to the psyche, and about which of those factors are entirely unique to sex work and which are not. And their relative weights.  I expect that some will be shared by a  smaller range of ways to make bucks, some by pretty much all of them. Is that allowed? ITT?

See, the other thread was about the unique ways that sex-work erodes the psyche, but for some reason you seemed discontent with that, and wanted to talk about the ways in which other types of work are like sex work.

Now, from my perspective you had it backwards; you would have been better off saying that sex work shares some commonalities with other types of work, rather than borrowing words from sex work and applying them to other types of work.

Do you want to talk about alienation, and the ways in which sex work, and other types of work, can be alienating? Or do you want to try to insist that freelance translating is equivalent to sex work? Because the latter is how you are coming across. Either you are having a terrible time expressing yourself, or your message itself, in my opinion, lacks merit.

[Dildo Argentino]

Holist, have you actually read Marx? I am just curious because of the odd inconsistency of equating the freelance writer to the alienated wage slave when, according to Marx, the writer would be an example of a non-alienated worker who is directly in control of and intimately in contact with his product, from inception to completion. Can you explain a little more about where you are coming from with that?

Yes, I have. Not all of it, that would be excessively kinky in my book. But as I grew up in a country that was at the time declaring itself communist, then socialist, where I was forced to learn Russian from age 10 and spent all school dos under massive portraits of the three bearded guys
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I think I've had a more thorough grounding in the ideology and the practical aspects of Marxism than most Western fashion-lefties.

I'm not saying freelance brainwork is necessarily alienated (and I don't think sex-work is necessarily alienated, either, though I fully agree that counterexamples must be extremely rare). I guess the point I am trying to get to is that while the factors that drive the worker towards alienation in those two fields are massively different in scale, they are somewhat similar in structure (see my numbered points in the OP).

[Dildo Argentino]

Do you want to talk about alienation, and the ways in which sex work, and other types of work, can be alienating? Or do you want to try to insist that freelance translating is equivalent to sex work?

The former.

Because the latter is how you are coming across. Either you are having a terrible time expressing yourself, or your message itself, in my opinion, lacks merit.

Well I'll be damned. I am sorry about that. But, sorrysorrysorry, I can't help adding that Some People^TM are also having a terrible time understanding what I say. I don't have much of a problem with that, by the way, but it is how I see things right now.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Holist, have you actually read Marx? I am just curious because of the odd inconsistency of equating the freelance writer to the alienated wage slave when, according to Marx, the writer would be an example of a non-alienated worker who is directly in control of and intimately in contact with his product, from inception to completion. Can you explain a little more about where you are coming from with that?

Yes, I have. Not all of it, that would be excessively kinky in my book. But as I grew up in a country that was at the time declaring itself communist, then socialist, where I was forced to learn Russian from age 10 and spent all school dos under massive portraits of the three bearded guys
(),
I think I've had a more thorough grounding in the ideology and the practical aspects of Marxism than most Western fashion-lefties.

I'm not saying freelance brainwork is necessarily alienated (and I don't think sex-work is necessarily alienated, either, though I fully agree that counterexamples must be extremely rare). I guess the point I am trying to get to is that while the factors that drive the worker towards alienation in those two fields are massively different in scale, they are somewhat similar in structure (see my numbered points in the OP).

I grew up in a country that has a mountain carved into the shape of Presidents, and that has exactly jack shit to do with anything. I asked you to please elucidate on where you are coming from with your insistence that the freelance worker who is in control and contact with the product of their labor from beginning to end is alienated according to Marx.

Resorting to ad-hominem like "fashion lefties" is not strengthening your point, it's making you look like you don't know what you're talking about.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Do you want to talk about alienation, and the ways in which sex work, and other types of work, can be alienating? Or do you want to try to insist that freelance translating is equivalent to sex work?

The former.

Because the latter is how you are coming across. Either you are having a terrible time expressing yourself, or your message itself, in my opinion, lacks merit.

Well I'll be damned. I am sorry about that. But, sorrysorrysorry, I can't help adding that Some People^TM are also having a terrible time understanding what I say. I don't have much of a problem with that, by the way, but it is how I see things right now.

I see, so it's not you, it's everyone else.

[Dildo Argentino]

See, the other thread was about the unique ways that sex-work erodes the psyche, but for some reason you seemed discontent with that, and wanted to talk about the ways in which other types of work are like sex work.

To be honest, I find it hard to see the move from "unique ways in which sex-work erodes the psyche" to "non-unique way in which sex-work erodes the psyche" as a massive leap and shameful derailment... but perhaps I just don't understand those terms well enough yet.

Now, from my perspective you had it backwards; you would have been better off saying that sex work shares some commonalities with other types of work, rather than borrowing words from sex work and applying them to other types of work.

Okay, I fully accept that. Calling myself an FLP is an old habit of mine, it is also a jokey way of expressing dissatisfaction with some of my life choices. I agree that bringing it up in that context because I was reminded of it, and then insisting on it, was foolish.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I grew up in the most Capitalistic country in the world, with the Golden Arches looming over every landscape... so clearly, I have a better founding in the principles of capitalism than some fashion-politico like Cain. Right?

Holist, you are coming across as if you are talking right the fuck out of your butthole on this. If you can cite Marx in a way that supports your apparently bizarre insistence that freelance writers are a prime example of his basic principles of worker alienation, I will back right down, admit I'm wrong, and apologize. I don't mind doing it, when I've been shown wrong.

However, I at the moment don't think you understand worker alienation as described by Marx, at all. Dismiss me as a "Western fashion lefty" if it makes you feel better, but trust me, you are making yourself look a pitiable fool, and I'm not saying that to be unkind.

[Dildo Argentino]

I grew up in a country that has a mountain carved into the shape of Presidents, and that has exactly jack shit to do with anything. I asked you to please elucidate on where you are coming from with your insistence that the freelance worker who is in control and contact with the product of their labor from beginning to end is alienated according to Marx.

Resorting to ad-hominem like "fashion lefties" is not strengthening your point, it's making you look like you don't know what you're talking about.

No ad hominem intended. I hope you agree that there are many fashion-lefties in the West with no personal experience of any attempts at putting communism or marxism or indeed socialism (monopolistic state capitalism) into practice? I mentioned them.

"the freelance worker who is in control and contact with the product of their labor from beginning to end" - this could be true of the freelance novelist (some of them, anyway, probably not those that churn out pulp for a living). It is not at all a good description of the "industrial" (quotes meant to indicate figurative use - comment, again, not intended as an ad hominem, I'm simply being cagey) freelance brainwork I have in mind. I am not in contact with the product beginning to end, and I see most of it as essentially pointless. I would not do it if I could develop a better way of making a living. But the freelancing tends to get in the way of that a lot. And I'm lazy.

[Dildo Argentino]

I see, so it's not you, it's everyone else.

Well no. See my previous. It is me. It is not you right now, but it has been, and also a few others. I think it takes two to tango, no?

[Dildo Argentino]

However, I at the moment don't think you understand worker alienation as described by Marx, at all.

I see my situation as rather strongly (but not fully!) parallel to the situation of one of the most alienated types of worker, the construction day-labourer.

They get picked up to work on various houses, and while they can decide not to take any particular job, they are forced to take many of them. The work is pointless (tile this half-finished wall! translate this half a document about some complaint about some motorway bridges, is what I'm doing right now, not complaining). We have no recourse to any sort of collective representation or labour organisation, competition is fierce, quality is very often not of the essence, self-exploitation is very easy to slide into.

The differences, of course, are numerous:

First and foremost: I get paid better.

Secondly: they tend to damage their bodies, I damage my brain.

Does that make it clearer?

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

However, I at the moment don't think you understand worker alienation as described by Marx, at all.

I see my situation as rather strongly (but not fully!) parallel to the situation of one of the most alienated types of worker, the construction day-labourer.

They get picked up to work on various houses, and while they can decide not to take any particular job, they are forced to take many of them. The work is pointless (tile this half-finished wall! translate this half a document about some complaint about some motorway bridges, is what I'm doing right now, not complaining). We have no recourse to any sort of collective representation or labour organisation, competition is fierce, quality is very often not of the essence, self-exploitation is very easy to slide into.

The differences, of course, are numerous:

First and foremost: I get paid better.

Secondly: they tend to damage their bodies, I damage my brain.

Does that make it clearer?

Wow, yes, in the sense that it makes it clear that you are a hopelessly self-indulgent spoiled brat to a degree I didn't foresee at all. Never mind; conversation over.

[Dildo Argentino]

Wow, yes, in the sense that it makes it clear that you are a hopelessly self-indulgent spoiled brat to a degree I didn't foresee at all. Never mind; conversation over.

- at a loss -

[tyrannosaurus vex]

However, I at the moment don't think you understand worker alienation as described by Marx, at all.

I see my situation as rather strongly (but not fully!) parallel to the situation of one of the most alienated types of worker, the construction day-labourer.

They get picked up to work on various houses, and while they can decide not to take any particular job, they are forced to take many of them. The work is pointless (tile this half-finished wall! translate this half a document about some complaint about some motorway bridges, is what I'm doing right now, not complaining). We have no recourse to any sort of collective representation or labour organisation, competition is fierce, quality is very often not of the essence, self-exploitation is very easy to slide into.

The differences, of course, are numerous:

First and foremost: I get paid better.

Secondly: they tend to damage their bodies, I damage my brain.

Does that make it clearer?

Wow, yes, in the sense that it makes it clear that you are a hopelessly self-indulgent spoiled brat to a degree I didn't foresee at all. Never mind; conversation over.

It's a wonder that anyone ever gets into a line of work like writing. It's as demeaning as prostitution, wears you out as fast as construction, and it barely leaves you with any time at all to be a jackass on the Internet.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

However, I at the moment don't think you understand worker alienation as described by Marx, at all.

I see my situation as rather strongly (but not fully!) parallel to the situation of one of the most alienated types of worker, the construction day-labourer.

They get picked up to work on various houses, and while they can decide not to take any particular job, they are forced to take many of them. The work is pointless (tile this half-finished wall! translate this half a document about some complaint about some motorway bridges, is what I'm doing right now, not complaining). We have no recourse to any sort of collective representation or labour organisation, competition is fierce, quality is very often not of the essence, self-exploitation is very easy to slide into.

The differences, of course, are numerous:

First and foremost: I get paid better.

Secondly: they tend to damage their bodies, I damage my brain.

Does that make it clearer?

Wow, yes, in the sense that it makes it clear that you are a hopelessly self-indulgent spoiled brat to a degree I didn't foresee at all. Never mind; conversation over.

It's a wonder that anyone ever gets into a line of work like writing. It's as demeaning as prostitution, wears you out as fast as construction, and it barely leaves you with any time at all to be a jackass on the Internet.

[Dildo Argentino]

It's a wonder that anyone ever gets into a line of work like writing. It's as demeaning as prostitution, wears you out as fast as construction, and it barely leaves you with any time at all to be a jackass on the Internet.

You should try it sometime - maybe for a year? And then see what you say when after a year you see no other way to pay the bills.