Educating Hunter: Libertarians

[Anna Mae Bollocks]

Rat: Yes, political Compass has "libertarian" at the bottom of the graph, and it doesn't mean anything like what we're talking about here. It's just the opposite of authoritarianism. I fall well within it myself because I really, really hate fascism and I don't give a shit what anybody does if it's not hurting anything. But I don't CALL myself "libertarian" because it's come to mean something entirely different, i.e., the wingnuts we're talking about here.

Need a new word. 

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

It has been my experience that giving people what they ask for is the best way to teach them self-reflection.

He wants everyone to be selfish?
Start cutting in line exactly in front of him as often as you can.
Borrow his pen without asking and return it broken. If he bitches about it start discussing the small print of your unwritten agreement.
If he wants to borrow your pen call him a socialist.
Take his seat everytime he gets up.
Try to push him out of his seat while he is still in it.
if it is a chair, take it without giving him a chance to get out of it.
Hoard anything communal, like whiteboard markers or something.
When it looks like he is about to break, offer him a drink to make up. Charge him afterwards. Twice what you paid for it.
In fact, charge him for every little thing you can't help yourself doing for him (holding open a door, lighting his cigarette, welcoming smiles and/or verbal greetings, anything someone could possibly get paid for, charge for it.)

I think : regret: just won the internets. 

I like of liked it before the edit. 

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

A big problem with a global government is that, very much along the lines of what we see already, there is no insulation from localized economic collapse.

True, but we're pretty much past the point of local economic collapse at this point, no? Aside from a new Walmart in town, at any rate.

We already have a good bit of the drawbacks of planetary union in place. May as well reap the benefits of such an arrangement. I'd like our species to be at peace. Real peace. For at least one generation.

Yes and no. It is still possible to shift back toward less-interdependent economies, although that's unlikely. It would, in my opinion, probably be a better idea than continuing to forge ahead with the global economy model.

ETA when I talk about localized economic collapse in this context, I'm not talking about "local" as in small towns, I'm talking about "localized" as in economies that are localized to a nation or region.

[Bu🤠ns]

Penn Jillette: Why I Am A Libertarian

He discusses the difference between being a member of the party and being a dick, lol.

He like Ayn Rand too, but I suspect he'd participate in a fair debate.


at any rate, it might be  a good way to build up your buddy's own argument to then tear it down.

Penn is the single person who almost convinced me of the merits of libertarianism, but he is also the first person to admit that it's utopian and he has no idea how the ideas could be practically implemented. 

And this, in my mind, is a good example of recognizing the merits of an ISM without necessarily wearing it's uniform.  During one interview  (or maybe it was in his God No book i can't remember) he mentioned that he and Teller like Objectivism.

What struck me was that I noticed that I didn't cringe as much as when others have said the same thing.

[hooplala]

Penn Jillette: Why I Am A Libertarian

He discusses the difference between being a member of the party and being a dick, lol.

He like Ayn Rand too, but I suspect he'd participate in a fair debate.


at any rate, it might be  a good way to build up your buddy's own argument to then tear it down.

Penn is the single person who almost convinced me of the merits of libertarianism, but he is also the first person to admit that it's utopian and he has no idea how the ideas could be practically implemented. 

And this, in my mind, is a good example of recognizing the merits of an ISM without necessarily wearing it's uniform.  During one interview  (or maybe it was in his God No book i can't remember) he mentioned that he and Teller like Objectivism.

What struck me was that I noticed that I didn't cringe as much as when others have said the same thing.

Same. I mean, I've read almost everything Rand has written (couldn't finish Atlas Shrugged, it was too boring) and like some of it, but most of her views are frankly laughable and it shocks me that Penn or Teller cannot see that.  Penn believes in the essential goodness of mankind though, so I guess that makes it easier.  he truly seems to believe poverty can be beaten through charity alone, I wouldnt know where to start arguing with him.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Penn believes in the essential goodness of mankind though, so I guess that makes it easier.

And he follows the prophet of greed and selfishness.

Go figure.

[Bu🤠ns]

Penn believes in the essential goodness of mankind though, so I guess that makes it easier.

And he follows the prophet of greed and selfishness.

Go figure.

During a reddit AMA in which he and Teller participated he mentioned how he it would be cool to go back and do a Bullshit! episode tearing apart some of the crazy ass beliefs that he and Teller hold including Atheism and Objectivism (particularly noting that Ayn Rand said some really insane shit).  The impression I get is that he's not too terribly attached to his own views and this is really the only reason I mentioned him specifically in this thread.

ETA: I sort of phrased that weird lumping in Athiesm and Objectivism...i don't necessarily mean to do that :P

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Penn believes in the essential goodness of mankind though, so I guess that makes it easier.

And he follows the prophet of greed and selfishness.

Go figure.

During a reddit AMA in which he and Teller participated he mentioned how he it would be cool to go back and do a Bullshit! episode tearing apart some of the crazy ass beliefs that he and Teller hold including Atheism and Objectivism (particularly noting that Ayn Rand said some really insane shit).  The impression I get is that he's not too terribly attached to his own views and this is really the only reason I mentioned him specifically in this thread.

ETA: I sort of phrased that weird lumping in Athiesm and Objectivism...i don't necessarily mean to do that :P

If you are an objectivist, you are either an atheist or a demon worshipper.  Just saying.

[hooplala]

Penn believes in the essential goodness of mankind though, so I guess that makes it easier.

And he follows the prophet of greed and selfishness.

Go figure.

During a reddit AMA in which he and Teller participated he mentioned how he it would be cool to go back and do a Bullshit! episode tearing apart some of the crazy ass beliefs that he and Teller hold including Atheism and Objectivism (particularly noting that Ayn Rand said some really insane shit).  The impression I get is that he's not too terribly attached to his own views and this is really the only reason I mentioned him specifically in this thread.

ETA: I sort of phrased that weird lumping in Athiesm and Objectivism...i don't necessarily mean to do that :P

If you are an objectivist, you are either an atheist or a demon worshipper.  Just saying.

He is an atheist.  Big time.  But, although he calls himself an Objectivist he doesn't act like any Objectivist I've ever known.  He certainly does not think he knows everything or what is right in every situation.  He admits ignorance all the time, and changes his views based on evidence.  Again, unlike every Objectivist I've known.

Teller, I don't know.  He is IN Atlas Shrugged 2, so he might be more rabid.  He doesn't talk too much, so it's hard to know.

And yes, I know I sound like a drooling fanboy.  I like me some Penn Jillette.

[Mangrove]

Perhaps the approach to take is this:

"Ok, so let's pretend that social security and similar programs are cut. Provide evidence (historical, economic, sociological etc) whereby letting citizens 'free fall' is beneficial to any society. Cite actual examples whereby disease, homelessness, and a widening gap between rich & poor has brought value to civilization." 

If they can't make a coherent rebuttal, then it boils down to simple selfishness and greed. Selfishness & greed don't count, IMHO as 'a political philosophy'. That's just being a dick. I don't need to study geo-politics to be a dick. I can do that for free, with no training or qualifications. I don't need to get a degree in economics from Harvard to be a dick. I can come from any educational & economic strata of ANY society in the world, from any historical epoch and BE A DICK. All that I must do is work from the assumption that I/Me/Mine trumps everything, even when there is substantial evidence to the contrary. In fact, extreme dickishness suggests that I would resort to the I/Me/Mine paradigm especially because there was opposing evidence. The more compelling the evidence, the more entrenched I can become. It's real easy & takes mere milliseconds of knee jerk reaction. 

Being a dick transcends language, nationality, ethnicity, culture, economics & education. The Hindus call it 'adharma' but we know it as BEING A DICK.

Atheism, Objectivism, Libertarianism, Conservatism, Liberalism etc. Somewhere in all of them lurks a pathway to BEING A DICK.

If people spent more time figuring out how to be LESS of a dick, they could rely less upon the above mentioned 'isms'. The 'ism' they find attractive is often the 'ism' that best allows them to justify and rationalize their dickishness. "No, I'm not a selfish jerk with scant concerns for others. I have a philosophy."

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Perhaps the approach to take is this:

"Ok, so let's pretend that social security and similar programs are cut. Provide evidence (historical, economic, sociological etc) whereby letting citizens 'free fall' is beneficial to any society. Cite actual examples whereby disease, homelessness, and a widening gap between rich & poor has brought value to civilization." 

If they can't make a coherent rebuttal, then it boils down to simple selfishness and greed. Selfishness & greed don't count, IMHO as 'a political philosophy'. That's just being a dick. I don't need to study geo-politics to be a dick. I can do that for free, with no training or qualifications. I don't need to get a degree in economics from Harvard to be a dick. I can come from any educational & economic strata of ANY society in the world, from any historical epoch and BE A DICK. All that I must do is work from the assumption that I/Me/Mine trumps everything, even when there is substantial evidence to the contrary. In fact, extreme dickishness suggests that I would resort to the I/Me/Mine paradigm especially because there was opposing evidence. The more compelling the evidence, the more entrenched I can become. It's real easy & takes mere milliseconds of knee jerk reaction. 

Being a dick transcends language, nationality, ethnicity, culture, economics & education. The Hindus call it 'adharma' but we know it as BEING A DICK.

Atheism, Objectivism, Libertarianism, Conservatism, Liberalism etc. Somewhere in all of them lurks a pathway to BEING A DICK.

If people spent more time figuring out how to be LESS of a dick, they could rely less upon the above mentioned 'isms'. The 'ism' they find attractive is often the 'ism' that best allows them to justify and rationalize their dickishness. "No, I'm not a selfish jerk with scant concerns for others. I have a philosophy."

Post of the day.

[hooplala]

Perhaps the approach to take is this:

"Ok, so let's pretend that social security and similar programs are cut. Provide evidence (historical, economic, sociological etc) whereby letting citizens 'free fall' is beneficial to any society. Cite actual examples whereby disease, homelessness, and a widening gap between rich & poor has brought value to civilization." 

If they can't make a coherent rebuttal, then it boils down to simple selfishness and greed. Selfishness & greed don't count, IMHO as 'a political philosophy'. That's just being a dick. I don't need to study geo-politics to be a dick. I can do that for free, with no training or qualifications. I don't need to get a degree in economics from Harvard to be a dick. I can come from any educational & economic strata of ANY society in the world, from any historical epoch and BE A DICK. All that I must do is work from the assumption that I/Me/Mine trumps everything, even when there is substantial evidence to the contrary. In fact, extreme dickishness suggests that I would resort to the I/Me/Mine paradigm especially because there was opposing evidence. The more compelling the evidence, the more entrenched I can become. It's real easy & takes mere milliseconds of knee jerk reaction. 

Being a dick transcends language, nationality, ethnicity, culture, economics & education. The Hindus call it 'adharma' but we know it as BEING A DICK.

Atheism, Objectivism, Libertarianism, Conservatism, Liberalism etc. Somewhere in all of them lurks a pathway to BEING A DICK.

If people spent more time figuring out how to be LESS of a dick, they could rely less upon the above mentioned 'isms'. The 'ism' they find attractive is often the 'ism' that best allows them to justify and rationalize their dickishness. "No, I'm not a selfish jerk with scant concerns for others. I have a philosophy."

Post of the day.

Agreed.

[LMNO]

A WINNER IS YUO!


Srsly, nicely put.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

Perhaps the approach to take is this:

"Ok, so let's pretend that social security and similar programs are cut. Provide evidence (historical, economic, sociological etc) whereby letting citizens 'free fall' is beneficial to any society. Cite actual examples whereby disease, homelessness, and a widening gap between rich & poor has brought value to civilization." 

If they can't make a coherent rebuttal, then it boils down to simple selfishness and greed. Selfishness & greed don't count, IMHO as 'a political philosophy'. That's just being a dick. I don't need to study geo-politics to be a dick. I can do that for free, with no training or qualifications. I don't need to get a degree in economics from Harvard to be a dick. I can come from any educational & economic strata of ANY society in the world, from any historical epoch and BE A DICK. All that I must do is work from the assumption that I/Me/Mine trumps everything, even when there is substantial evidence to the contrary. In fact, extreme dickishness suggests that I would resort to the I/Me/Mine paradigm especially because there was opposing evidence. The more compelling the evidence, the more entrenched I can become. It's real easy & takes mere milliseconds of knee jerk reaction. 

Being a dick transcends language, nationality, ethnicity, culture, economics & education. The Hindus call it 'adharma' but we know it as BEING A DICK.

Atheism, Objectivism, Libertarianism, Conservatism, Liberalism etc. Somewhere in all of them lurks a pathway to BEING A DICK.

If people spent more time figuring out how to be LESS of a dick, they could rely less upon the above mentioned 'isms'. The 'ism' they find attractive is often the 'ism' that best allows them to justify and rationalize their dickishness. "No, I'm not a selfish jerk with scant concerns for others. I have a philosophy."

Brilliant!

[hunter s.durden]

Oh, Mang...

You brought this thread back to where I wanted it. I owe you a "hug."

One of the best thoughts on politics in general I've seen in a while.