The Fall of the Republic has been delayed due to the possibility of rain

[Verbal Mike]

Oddly enough, there's a very similar discussion going on in leftist circles in Israel, despite the fact that we basically have a multi-party system. People who are left of center end up voting closer to the center than they'd like just to make sure their vote gets counted. But in Israel as in the US, not voting doesn't empower anybody. It just allows your perspective to continue being ignored. Of course the system is geared to encourage this. In the US more than Israel, I'd say. Voting doesn't make anything better, but not voting contributes to things going the way they're going already. I think the only solution is to vote for a party that has more than a snowball's chance in hell and focussing your energy on changing things outside the electoral system. Voting is just putting your finger in the dam. You still have to work on repairing that hole or pushing back the tide, and that requires real work, not just putting a piece of paper in a box.

BTW, in Israel there's a significant movement of lefties registering in Likkud (the big right-wing party) in order to participate in primaries and try to keep them from veering off too far to the right. They then vote for a leftist party come real elections. It's a response to right-wing extremists (settlers) who do the same thing, except come elections they vote for the outright fascists, whom their plants in Likkud give a place in government. In America you have the Tea Party doing that kind of thing to the GOP, and I wonder why no lefties have registered as Republicans to sabotage that effort (or maybe they have and I haven't heard of them). Probably because of how entrenched partisan lines are and because of the idealistic hope that if the GOP goes off the far end they'll never win an election again. And I think we're starting to see that people are way too stupid to be expected to act that way. The GOP has for a long time been really bad for most of its voters and outright crazy, but they manage to win some races anyway because their tactics aren't based on sound policy. Even their politics aren't based on policy.

[Verbal Mike]

Whoops, just found out that changes to primaries rules in Likkud preclude all of those leftie infiltrators from even participating.

[Roly Poly Oly-Garch]

I know of at least a few votes for Santorum in the primaries that were maybe not quite genuine.

Of course the hope there was to get a Santorum v Obama general...not to push Mitt to the right.

Whoops.
 

[Roly Poly Oly-Garch]

Actually, I see the point he's trying to make, and it seems valid to me.

The left is a gigantic set of playground wimps that hasten to tell you that they're left-leaning or bipartisan or whatever the fuck excuse they have this week for being GREAT BIG SISSIES.  Liberals SHIT THEIR PANTS when in the presence of conservatives, because they have bought the conservative's narrative.  While individuals may be different, the "left" as a whole is absolutely fucking useless.  I shit on them from a great height.

I think his point is the Republic is doomed because Obama has pussified America so it is afraid of rain.

Cain,
textual literalist.

Typical. W spends 8 years turning America into a bunch of sissy-la-las and then everyone wants to blame Obama cause he can't restore America's cajones in 4 years.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Today's "liberals" are the primary reason the Overton Window has moved so sharply right.  Instead of drawing a line and saying, 'fuck THAT', they actively "reach across the aisle", not realizing that the right wing is just STANDING there, making the libs come to them and calling that "middle ground".

And this is why Romney now stands a pretty good chance of being elected.  Liberals are either disgusted by Obama's weak sister act and won't be bothered, or they're PURISTS and can't bring themselves to vote for Obama because he is a great deal less than perfect.

False alternative.

There's a whole school, consisting of me and maybe some others, who've noticed that every time something remotely resembling a leftward push threatens to happen in this country, that's precisely when the wingnuts start getting stupid amounts of exposure.

Seems to me that if the elephant in the room is about to get exposed, the best way to prevent that is to start swinging axes at the folks looking in that direction. So yeah, we've got this massive wealth gap getting larger everyday. There's this war on terror that we're using to justify "small sacrifices of constitutional liberties" but only for the duration of hostilities (whatever the fuck that means). There's an emerging yet already massive prison industrial complex and a particularly dire state of energy dependence staring down the barrel of an almost dry well. Maybe we should think abou--

HOLY FUCKING SHIT HERE COME'S MITT AND HE'S AFTER YOUR FOOD STAMPS AND VAGINAS.

I can't help thinking that maybe if we stopped acting as expected every fucking time that ploy is pulled, maybe 8, 12, 16 years from now we'll be debating whether to invest in more wind farms or more hydro, instead of debating whether or not to have the fucking year 1592 again.

I'm wearing my foil hat proudly when I say this, but to my mind voting bad just cause we think there's worse out there is as much a vote for worse as it is for bad. Cause the only way we're gonna keep voting for bad, is if we keep being presented with worse. And what's the surest way to keep even free thinkers nice and predictable??? Permanent crisis mode.

Enjoy your war in Iran.

ETA:  Oh, yeah.  You won't be going.  My kids will.

[Cain]

War in Iran is a question of "when", not "if".

Bibi's gonna take that decision out of the hands of the US Presidency, regardless of who is in charge.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

War in Iran is a question of "when", not "if".

Bibi's gonna take that decision out of the hands of the US Presidency, regardless of who is in charge.

We'll see.  If Obama is reelected, we may have the war in the next 4 years.

If Romney is elected we WILL have that war in the next 2 years.

[Cain]

It'll be whenever the US Presidency is in the least advantageous place to resist an Israeli call to action.

Ironically, Obama is weaker and more open to attack than Romney on this issue politically, though Romney's own biases and psychological weaknesses mean things are probably even.  Obama's got a rep as an "Israel-hater" for the high crime of thinking Bibi is an arse (which makes about 1/3 of all Israelis self-loathing antisemites), meaning if Israel manufactures a crisis with Iran, he's got more to prove in order to be on the side of public opinion.  Republicans are assumed to be pro-Israeli, and so can actually snub them now and then, though Romney's pathological desire to pander to the base means he likely wont.

The Gulf states are also putting pressure on America, too, and that pressure crosses party lines.  Disturbing whispers on Wall Street suggest a "military stimulus" might be enough to drag the US out of recession.  Obama has shown he's not historically capable of standing up to either interest group very much.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

It'll be whenever the US Presidency is in the least advantageous place to resist an Israeli call to action.

Ironically, Obama is weaker and more open to attack than Romney on this issue politically, though Romney's own biases and psychological weaknesses mean things are probably even.  Obama's got a rep as an "Israel-hater" for the high crime of thinking Bibi is an arse (which makes about 1/3 of all Israelis self-loathing antisemites), meaning if Israel manufactures a crisis with Iran, he's got more to prove in order to be on the side of public opinion.  Republicans are assumed to be pro-Israeli, and so can actually snub them now and then, though Romney's pathological desire to pander to the base means he likely wont.

The Gulf states are also putting pressure on America, too, and that pressure crosses party lines.  Disturbing whispers on Wall Street suggest a "military stimulus" might be enough to drag the US out of recession.  Obama has shown he's not historically capable of standing up to either interest group very much.

Thing is, he won't have to worry about reelection after November.  IIRC, Clinton grew a pair in his second term (he sure as fuck didn't have any in his first term).  So public opinion might not be as important.

[BabylonHoruv]

Oddly enough, there's a very similar discussion going on in leftist circles in Israel, despite the fact that we basically have a multi-party system. People who are left of center end up voting closer to the center than they'd like just to make sure their vote gets counted. But in Israel as in the US, not voting doesn't empower anybody. It just allows your perspective to continue being ignored. Of course the system is geared to encourage this. In the US more than Israel, I'd say. Voting doesn't make anything better, but not voting contributes to things going the way they're going already. I think the only solution is to vote for a party that has more than a snowball's chance in hell and focussing your energy on changing things outside the electoral system. Voting is just putting your finger in the dam. You still have to work on repairing that hole or pushing back the tide, and that requires real work, not just putting a piece of paper in a box.

BTW, in Israel there's a significant movement of lefties registering in Likkud (the big right-wing party) in order to participate in primaries and try to keep them from veering off too far to the right. They then vote for a leftist party come real elections. It's a response to right-wing extremists (settlers) who do the same thing, except come elections they vote for the outright fascists, whom their plants in Likkud give a place in government. In America you have the Tea Party doing that kind of thing to the GOP, and I wonder why no lefties have registered as Republicans to sabotage that effort (or maybe they have and I haven't heard of them). Probably because of how entrenched partisan lines are and because of the idealistic hope that if the GOP goes off the far end they'll never win an election again. And I think we're starting to see that people are way too stupid to be expected to act that way. The GOP has for a long time been really bad for most of its voters and outright crazy, but they manage to win some races anyway because their tactics aren't based on sound policy. Even their politics aren't based on policy.

I'm a registered Republican for that reason.  I tend to get idealist and do stupid things like vote for Ron Paul though.  I have yet to vote for a Republican in the general election.

[Anna Mae Bollocks]

How the hell did the Right get all the people who can create effective narratives?

They aren't effective narratives.  The left is just weak and LAZY.  And their constituents are WORSE.  ANY excuse to beg off from maybe GETTING OFF THEIR ARSES AND VOTING, much less getting involved.  Their parents and grandparents smoked dope in the 60s, so they think their work is fucking done.

A plague on all cowards.  Wait.  I don't NEED to say that, because it's COMING ANYWAY, to a nation full of people who either want to vote for Romney because he looks all alpha male, or are too fucking hip to vote for a guy whose feet are made out of clay.

FUCK 'EM ALL.  DIE, BASTARDS!

This. Because the only thing between us and Romney is Obama, drone strikes or no.

No, the only thing between you and all these teabagger fucksticks with their fucked up legislation (killing unruly children, making women property, etc) is Obama.  Not that he's trying really hard...But Romney will ASSIST this shit.

Permission to quote with attribution?

[inode_buddha]

It'll be whenever the US Presidency is in the least advantageous place to resist an Israeli call to action.

Ironically, Obama is weaker and more open to attack than Romney on this issue politically, though Romney's own biases and psychological weaknesses mean things are probably even.  Obama's got a rep as an "Israel-hater" for the high crime of thinking Bibi is an arse (which makes about 1/3 of all Israelis self-loathing antisemites), meaning if Israel manufactures a crisis with Iran, he's got more to prove in order to be on the side of public opinion.  Republicans are assumed to be pro-Israeli, and so can actually snub them now and then, though Romney's pathological desire to pander to the base means he likely wont.

The Gulf states are also putting pressure on America, too, and that pressure crosses party lines.  Disturbing whispers on Wall Street suggest a "military stimulus" might be enough to drag the US out of recession.  Obama has shown he's not historically capable of standing up to either interest group very much.

Thing is, he won't have to worry about reelection after November.  IIRC, Clinton grew a pair in his second term (he sure as fuck didn't have any in his first term).  So public opinion might not be as important.

Monica Lewinsky had more President in her than Romney ever will. However I think he *will* start shit in the MidEast. Mainly due to his strong judeo-christian prejudices.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

I tend to get idealist and do stupid things like vote for Ron Paul though. 

Tell us about that, BH...Which "ideals" of his do you support?  His racism?  His hatred for articles I, II, and VI of the US constitution?  His seemingly unlimited capacity for hucksterism?

Fucking chump.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

How the hell did the Right get all the people who can create effective narratives?

They aren't effective narratives.  The left is just weak and LAZY.  And their constituents are WORSE.  ANY excuse to beg off from maybe GETTING OFF THEIR ARSES AND VOTING, much less getting involved.  Their parents and grandparents smoked dope in the 60s, so they think their work is fucking done.

A plague on all cowards.  Wait.  I don't NEED to say that, because it's COMING ANYWAY, to a nation full of people who either want to vote for Romney because he looks all alpha male, or are too fucking hip to vote for a guy whose feet are made out of clay.

FUCK 'EM ALL.  DIE, BASTARDS!

This. Because the only thing between us and Romney is Obama, drone strikes or no.

No, the only thing between you and all these teabagger fucksticks with their fucked up legislation (killing unruly children, making women property, etc) is Obama.  Not that he's trying really hard...But Romney will ASSIST this shit.

Permission to quote with attribution?

Go nuts.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

I tend to get idealist and do stupid things like vote for Ron Paul though. 

Tell us about that, BH...Which "ideals" of his do you support?  His racism?  His hatred for articles I, II, and VI of the US constitution?  His seemingly unlimited capacity for hucksterism?

Fucking chump.

Oh, wait.  Maybe you like his "ideals" like "brown babies can't be citizens" or "women are property".