So What's A White Boy To Do?

[The Good Reverend Roger]

I suspect American^(TM) culture isn't a culture. It's a...thing...that eats cultures. Swallows 'em and shits 'em out already shrinkwrapped and bar coded.

So were the Romans.  Dominant cultures are that way.  It's all how you sell it.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

I'm pretty sure enjoying the outdoors is universally human.

The Yokuts and Monache might disagree.  I mean, you're walking on land appropriated from them.

[Junkenstein]

My thinking is something like this: You're you. You're so totally special and you have these opinions. That's totally fucking awesome. Unfortunately, you live next to them. Your neighbours. With their music and their opinions. They suck. In fact your town sucks, the local music scene sucks and you bail. You find a new town. New people. End up living somewhere. But the neighbours suck here too. So you move. And again. Then you find out that the town is just as shitty as the old town. So you move.....

The above is a hypothetical "you", taking culture at the scale of where you live. I'd guess a lot of you have moved at some point, so consider the change on the social circles you are no longer in. While I may be missed in a couple, I suspect life, attitudes and very little really has changed in most.

I guess I'm thinking of trying to avoid the idea where you assume that you are central to these things to the extent that life just wouldn't be them same without X around.

Consider here, no bans, many a flounce and IMMALEAVINGFEREVVER. This kind of thinking puts any culture as external. And I guess when you view yourself as apart from or above something the result is not going to be positive.


Edit - Just remembered the second bit, yeah you've got me there that was the idiot talking. I try to censor him. I occasionally succeed.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

My thinking is something like this: You're you. You're so totally special and you have these opinions. That's totally fucking awesome. Unfortunately, you live next to them. Your neighbours. With their music and their opinions. They suck. In fact your town sucks, the local music scene sucks and you bail. You find a new town. New people. End up living somewhere. But the neighbours suck here too. So you move. And again. Then you find out that the town is just as shitty as the old town. So you move.....

The above is a hypothetical "you", taking culture at the scale of where you live. I'd guess a lot of you have moved at some point, so consider the change on the social circles you are no longer in. While I may be missed in a couple, I suspect life, attitudes and very little really has changed in most.

I guess I'm thinking of trying to avoid the idea where you assume that you are central to these things to the extent that life just wouldn't be them same without X around.

Consider here, no bans, many a flounce and IMMALEAVINGFEREVVER. This kind of thinking puts any culture as external. And I guess when you view yourself as apart from or above something the result is not going to be positive.

Running from your culture is like running from your legs.  You can't do it, because it's part of you.

[Junkenstein]

I don't think I'm getting this out very well.

I kind of have this idea of there essentially being 2 groups of cultures, Your Own(tm pending) and Theirs.

While you can't escape your own, and your own life essentially establishes your personal culture, They have many and you can enter these to various extents with various degrees of effort.

When looking at this second group the impact of a given individual on it (or not) is relatively small. This is what gets me thinking towards the main way to change things would be at creation or soon upon entry into it. Sticking with music as an example, count the number of bands that have "revolutionised music" over the years. No one is revolutionary after a couple of tours though.


Again, bad examples and sweeping generalisations, I'll think about this a bit and either shut up or try and make more sense.

[Juana]

I'm pretty sure enjoying the outdoors is universally human.

The Yokuts and Monache might disagree.  I mean, you're walking on land appropriated from them.

The actual, physical process of hiking is not a stolen activity. Yes, it's on stolen land, but I'm not stealing their culture.

[LMNO]

I've heard, for really real, that some pre-colonial dwellers of the North American continent (as it is currently called) are indeed offended when the white opressor walks upon their sacred land and, you know, enjoys themselves.

[Juana]

I was thinking about the differences between the Western concept of land versus (some? I don't know very much about Native tribes) Native concept of land. Close enough.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

I've heard, for really real, that some pre-colonial dwellers of the North American continent (as it is currently called) are indeed offended when the white opressor walks upon their sacred land and, you know, enjoys themselves.

You're right.  They're all dead now, so it doesn't matter.

"Every fortune begins with a crime lapsed statute of limitations."
- Voltaire

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Basically - and I'm sure I have this wrong - my take on the last few posts was "ethics are important, but don't look directly at me".

We shouldn't wear a war bonnet, but it's okay to take and subsequently use hunting grounds, etc.  We shouldn't put our hair in dreds, but it's okay to benefit from slave labor.

It seems so selective.

[Juana]

Where are you getting the "ethics are important, but don't look directly at me" thing? I feel like you're conflating influence/organic change with cultural appropriation, and they're quite different. One is natural and fine, the other is theft. This is really not intended to attack you or anyone here and it seems like you're getting kind of het up about it.

We live in a really fucking shitty world, Roger. I don't have an answer for the land thing, but I know I can refrain from adding insult to injury by not wearing a war bonnet. As for the slave labor, that can be fought (or at least we can do our damnedest). And again, I can refrain from adding insult to injury by not wearing a sign of their resistance to the domination of my race.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Where are you getting the "ethics are important, but don't look directly at me" thing? I feel like you're conflating influence/organic change with cultural appropriation, and they're quite different. One is natural and fine, the other is theft. This is really not intended to attack you or anyone here and it seems like you're getting kind of het up about it.

Nope.  Just on unfamiliar ground.

We live in a really fucking shitty world, Roger.

You don't say.   

I don't have an answer for the land thing, but I know I can refrain from adding insult to injury by not wearing a war bonnet. As for the slave labor, that can be fought (or at least we can do our damnedest). And again, I can refrain from adding insult to injury by not wearing a sign of their resistance to the domination of my race.

So we can attain the form if not the function, so to speak.

[Junkenstein]

An argument could be made that societies/cultures are built around the basis of form creating function.


Not saying this has worked out well though, but it does appear to be the Mammalian way to create a structure and the expect people to adhere to it. It works pretty well. Unfortunately.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

An argument could be made that societies/cultures are built around the basis of form creating function.

So war bonnets create hunting grounds?  I can buy that...Or at least the idea that war bonnets make the hunting ground the exclusive province of one group.  That would be the side with the most war bonnets.

[Juana]

Where are you getting the "ethics are important, but don't look directly at me" thing? I feel like you're conflating influence/organic change with cultural appropriation, and they're quite different. One is natural and fine, the other is theft. This is really not intended to attack you or anyone here and it seems like you're getting kind of het up about it.

Nope.  Just on unfamiliar ground.

We live in a really fucking shitty world, Roger.

You don't say.   

I don't have an answer for the land thing, but I know I can refrain from adding insult to injury by not wearing a war bonnet. As for the slave labor, that can be fought (or at least we can do our damnedest). And again, I can refrain from adding insult to injury by not wearing a sign of their resistance to the domination of my race.

So we can attain the form if not the function, so to speak.

I guess? It's better than making their cultures into costumes/novelties, I suppose. And also more respectful of them as people.