So What's A White Boy To Do?

[P3nT4gR4m]

I think I might be getting hung up on your insistence on the word "sacred", and that I should respect whatever thing someone claims it to be.

Coincidentally the mere use of the word "sacred" generally causes the complete opposite of respect from me. Their sacred cow is my cheeseburger. The angrier this makes them, the less I seem to need extra relish.

[Juana]

Okay. I should have known that was the wrong word to here. That's my bad.

[Phox]

ok, how about religion. an icon of my countries religious history has been misappropriated. you have one Eris. please return her immediately.

I was wondering when that would come up. The answer I want to give is that Western culture has some pretty solid Greek influences, but that might just be excuses.

so
if I were to begin wearing traditional Arabian clothing I would be guilty of cultural appropriation?

Here, in the US? Or the West in general? I'd say so. If you're running around there, I don't think so? Especially if you've moved there. Again, you should probably talk to an Arabian.

This is the sort of thing that people are talking about, Garbo. It makes no sense. If I walk around in a hijab because I like them, feel comfortable in them, or wish to show my various Muslim friends that I appreciate their culture through adoption, then it's wrong. Unless I'm in a predominately Muslim country. What if I'm visiting a predominately Muslim neighborhood?

I don't understand why it doesn't make sense. Perhaps I'm a little slow on the uptake and will facepalm later, but would you explain that to me?
I don't know how much of the hijab is attached explicitly to Islam, so I'm not going to say anything on the first one (although I do know that a friend who started wearing one eventually converted, partly, I think, because she felt she was appropriating it. I'll ask her). The country part - some of that is mandated by law, in some countries IIRC. As for when you're visiting a predominantly Muslim, IDK. Maybe? Might depend on the make up of the neighborhood.
TBH, I'm not real comfortable making these kind of comments because I don't belong to those cultures and don't know enough off hand to say anything for sure.

Because it seems like you're saying don't wear things that are culturally appropriated (and now it seems like you're saying there's a difference between religious and regional cultrues?), because you might offend random people. Well, sure, I might offend random people for being a white American, trans, lesbian, etc. So, offending people through my clothing choices are not something I really give a damn about. The people who matter to me wouldn't be offended by me doing so, and I would hazard to guess, that the large majority of the Middle Eastern and African Muslim students wouldn't even look twice at me. As one of my friends so aptly put it after discussing culture shock: "It's America, it's freedom."

I mean, I can fully understand why Native Americans would get offended by Caucasians adopting and fetishizing their culture. But it's a two way street. Should white people be allowed to get pissed when they see a Native American wearing "traditional" jeans, Western shirts, and cowboy boots? Or Christian symbols? The problem I have, is that it is coming across as we should be sensitive of other people's feelings, even if that means we have to bother about their inane sensibilities. Or, that it's that white people have to behave like "Westerners", or "White People", but any other group can adopt "Western" or "White" culture with no consequence. It's really fucking stupid either way.

[AFK]

Holy crap, this is what happens when I don't log in for a day.  Did I miss all of the good parts?


I may be a jerk for saying this (like it's ever stopped me) but this cultural appropriation feels like the polar opposite of the "Speak English or Die" memes that come from the right. 


Fuck, I'm all for the human race being one big ass melting pot.  I think it's pretty obvious when someone is doing something to mock or poke at a culture.  If it's just some stupid asshat adopting garb or hair styles, or whatever, because they think it's hip or cool, who the fuck cares? 


It's a hopeless expectation for every primate on this mud rock to have a perfect sensitivity and Cultural IQ. mIf they aren't goong out of there way to poke and lambaste a culture, just let the bastards be.  Does it really hurt anyone?

[Don Coyote]

ok, how about religion. an icon of my countries religious history has been misappropriated. you have one Eris. please return her immediately.

I was wondering when that would come up. The answer I want to give is that Western culture has some pretty solid Greek influences, but that might just be excuses.

so
if I were to begin wearing traditional Arabian clothing I would be guilty of cultural appropriation?

Here, in the US? Or the West in general? I'd say so. If you're running around there, I don't think so? Especially if you've moved there. Again, you should probably talk to an Arabian.

This is the sort of thing that people are talking about, Garbo. It makes no sense. If I walk around in a hijab because I like them, feel comfortable in them, or wish to show my various Muslim friends that I appreciate their culture through adoption, then it's wrong. Unless I'm in a predominately Muslim country. What if I'm visiting a predominately Muslim neighborhood?

I don't understand why it doesn't make sense. Perhaps I'm a little slow on the uptake and will facepalm later, but would you explain that to me?
I don't know how much of the hijab is attached explicitly to Islam, so I'm not going to say anything on the first one (although I do know that a friend who started wearing one eventually converted, partly, I think, because she felt she was appropriating it. I'll ask her). The country part - some of that is mandated by law, in some countries IIRC. As for when you're visiting a predominantly Muslim, IDK. Maybe? Might depend on the make up of the neighborhood.
TBH, I'm not real comfortable making these kind of comments because I don't belong to those cultures and don't know enough off hand to say anything for sure.

Because it seems like you're saying don't wear things that are culturally appropriated (and now it seems like you're saying there's a difference between religious and regional cultrues?), because you might offend random people. Well, sure, I might offend random people for being a white American, trans, lesbian, etc. So, offending people through my clothing choices are not something I really give a damn about. The people who matter to me wouldn't be offended by me doing so, and I would hazard to guess, that the large majority of the Middle Eastern and African Muslim students wouldn't even look twice at me. As one of my friends so aptly put it after discussing culture shock: "It's America, it's freedom."

I mean, I can fully understand why Native Americans would get offended by Caucasians adopting and fetishizing their culture. But it's a two way street. Should white people be allowed to get pissed when they see a Native American wearing "traditional" jeans, Western shirts, and cowboy boots? Or Christian symbols? The problem I have, is that it is coming across as we should be sensitive of other people's feelings, even if that means we have to bother about their inane sensibilities. Or, that it's that white people have to behave like "Westerners", or "White People", but any other group can adopt "Western" or "White" culture with no consequence. It's really fucking stupid either way.

Also to be considered, the clothing styles associated with Islam aren't specifically Muslim, they are clothing specific to the regions ethnic groups regardless of the religion. Saying a burka is a Muslim garment is like saying trousers are a Christian garment.

[Faust]

ok, how about religion. an icon of my countries religious history has been misappropriated. you have one Eris. please return her immediately.

I was wondering when that would come up. The answer I want to give is that Western culture has some pretty solid Greek influences, but that might just be excuses.

so
if I were to begin wearing traditional Arabian clothing I would be guilty of cultural appropriation?

Here, in the US? Or the West in general? I'd say so. If you're running around there, I don't think so? Especially if you've moved there. Again, you should probably talk to an Arabian.

This is the sort of thing that people are talking about, Garbo. It makes no sense. If I walk around in a hijab because I like them, feel comfortable in them, or wish to show my various Muslim friends that I appreciate their culture through adoption, then it's wrong. Unless I'm in a predominately Muslim country. What if I'm visiting a predominately Muslim neighborhood?

I don't understand why it doesn't make sense. Perhaps I'm a little slow on the uptake and will facepalm later, but would you explain that to me?
I don't know how much of the hijab is attached explicitly to Islam, so I'm not going to say anything on the first one (although I do know that a friend who started wearing one eventually converted, partly, I think, because she felt she was appropriating it. I'll ask her). The country part - some of that is mandated by law, in some countries IIRC. As for when you're visiting a predominantly Muslim, IDK. Maybe? Might depend on the make up of the neighborhood.
TBH, I'm not real comfortable making these kind of comments because I don't belong to those cultures and don't know enough off hand to say anything for sure.

On a similar note.
What if for whatever reason I, a stereotypical white male, find myself unable to shear my hair or wash it for extended periods of time? Am I forbidden from placing my hair into dreadlocks? Regardless of how retarded they look on white folk.

And on THAT note.
Would it be acceptable to mock a western white man for wearing the clothes of an Arab man or woman, or a Japanese man or woman? What if I felt like wearing a dashiki, for similar reasons to wearing Arab dress, only more colors?

How dare transgender people steal the culture of the gender they mimic.
How dare there be a gradual spread of ideas and a change of culture over time.
How dare races mix.

[Don Coyote]

ok, how about religion. an icon of my countries religious history has been misappropriated. you have one Eris. please return her immediately.

I was wondering when that would come up. The answer I want to give is that Western culture has some pretty solid Greek influences, but that might just be excuses.

so
if I were to begin wearing traditional Arabian clothing I would be guilty of cultural appropriation?

Here, in the US? Or the West in general? I'd say so. If you're running around there, I don't think so? Especially if you've moved there. Again, you should probably talk to an Arabian.

This is the sort of thing that people are talking about, Garbo. It makes no sense. If I walk around in a hijab because I like them, feel comfortable in them, or wish to show my various Muslim friends that I appreciate their culture through adoption, then it's wrong. Unless I'm in a predominately Muslim country. What if I'm visiting a predominately Muslim neighborhood?

I don't understand why it doesn't make sense. Perhaps I'm a little slow on the uptake and will facepalm later, but would you explain that to me?
I don't know how much of the hijab is attached explicitly to Islam, so I'm not going to say anything on the first one (although I do know that a friend who started wearing one eventually converted, partly, I think, because she felt she was appropriating it. I'll ask her). The country part - some of that is mandated by law, in some countries IIRC. As for when you're visiting a predominantly Muslim, IDK. Maybe? Might depend on the make up of the neighborhood.
TBH, I'm not real comfortable making these kind of comments because I don't belong to those cultures and don't know enough off hand to say anything for sure.

On a similar note.
What if for whatever reason I, a stereotypical white male, find myself unable to shear my hair or wash it for extended periods of time? Am I forbidden from placing my hair into dreadlocks? Regardless of how retarded they look on white folk.

And on THAT note.
Would it be acceptable to mock a western white man for wearing the clothes of an Arab man or woman, or a Japanese man or woman? What if I felt like wearing a dashiki, for similar reasons to wearing Arab dress, only more colors?

How dare transgender people steal the culture of the gender they mimic.
How dare there be a gradual spread of ideas and a change of culture over time.
How dare races mix.

Damn right. Women should not be allowed to wear trousers.

[Phox]

ok, how about religion. an icon of my countries religious history has been misappropriated. you have one Eris. please return her immediately.

I was wondering when that would come up. The answer I want to give is that Western culture has some pretty solid Greek influences, but that might just be excuses.

so
if I were to begin wearing traditional Arabian clothing I would be guilty of cultural appropriation?

Here, in the US? Or the West in general? I'd say so. If you're running around there, I don't think so? Especially if you've moved there. Again, you should probably talk to an Arabian.

This is the sort of thing that people are talking about, Garbo. It makes no sense. If I walk around in a hijab because I like them, feel comfortable in them, or wish to show my various Muslim friends that I appreciate their culture through adoption, then it's wrong. Unless I'm in a predominately Muslim country. What if I'm visiting a predominately Muslim neighborhood?

I don't understand why it doesn't make sense. Perhaps I'm a little slow on the uptake and will facepalm later, but would you explain that to me?
I don't know how much of the hijab is attached explicitly to Islam, so I'm not going to say anything on the first one (although I do know that a friend who started wearing one eventually converted, partly, I think, because she felt she was appropriating it. I'll ask her). The country part - some of that is mandated by law, in some countries IIRC. As for when you're visiting a predominantly Muslim, IDK. Maybe? Might depend on the make up of the neighborhood.
TBH, I'm not real comfortable making these kind of comments because I don't belong to those cultures and don't know enough off hand to say anything for sure.

Because it seems like you're saying don't wear things that are culturally appropriated (and now it seems like you're saying there's a difference between religious and regional cultrues?), because you might offend random people. Well, sure, I might offend random people for being a white American, trans, lesbian, etc. So, offending people through my clothing choices are not something I really give a damn about. The people who matter to me wouldn't be offended by me doing so, and I would hazard to guess, that the large majority of the Middle Eastern and African Muslim students wouldn't even look twice at me. As one of my friends so aptly put it after discussing culture shock: "It's America, it's freedom."

I mean, I can fully understand why Native Americans would get offended by Caucasians adopting and fetishizing their culture. But it's a two way street. Should white people be allowed to get pissed when they see a Native American wearing "traditional" jeans, Western shirts, and cowboy boots? Or Christian symbols? The problem I have, is that it is coming across as we should be sensitive of other people's feelings, even if that means we have to bother about their inane sensibilities. Or, that it's that white people have to behave like "Westerners", or "White People", but any other group can adopt "Western" or "White" culture with no consequence. It's really fucking stupid either way.

Also to be considered, the clothing styles associated with Islam aren't specifically Muslim, they are clothing specific to the regions ethnic groups regardless of the religion. Saying a burka is a Muslim garment is like saying trousers are a Christian garment.

Yes, that's what I was getting at when I was implying there isn't really a difference between regional and religious culture. They are pretty well infused, and spread largely as one and the same.

[P3nT4gR4m]

Okay. I should have known that was the wrong word to here. That's my bad.

It's the perfect word. Ascribing some quality to an inanimate object or an arbitrary pattern of movements or sounds that patently isn't there or exists only in the minds of people who give a shit and expecting everyone else to give a shit is pretty much the definition of sacred in my book. Someone dressed up as a nun and gave her husband a blowjob? If someone gets bent about that then fuck them. In my book they deserve it.

[Phox]

Also, because it bugged me for some unknown reason until just now, would be acceptable if the United States legally demanded that everyone dressed as a stereotypical Pilgrim of their birth assigned sex while within its borders? Because dressing in traditional Arabic garb in Middle Eastern countries is acceptable "because its the law" is a fucking piss-poor argument.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Different variety of asshole, I guess. The kind who wears "sexy squaw" outfits.

You're making an assumption, there.

TGRR,
Has perversions where you didn't even know you had brain meat.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

*shrug* I'm possibly being over cautious. The only real furor I've ever seen over Arab clothing/Islamic ladies' covering had to do with Lady Gaga wearing a filmy burqua, which was not well received.

HELLO.  LADY GAGA.

TGRR,
Loves her for a reason.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

taking money for sacred things strips the sacredness in many Native cultures.

If I don't believe I'm stripping the sacredness* of Christianity when I use holy water to wash my crotch, why should I believe I'm stripping the sacredness from the Sioux if I buy a tribal drum?







*And what the fuck does that mean?  A fetishistic attachment to an inanimate object?

OK, I just got home a bit ago and am only halfway through the thread, but I wanted to say that accepting payment for a supposedly sacred object strips that specific object of its sacredness in many Native American cultures and is therefore considered sacrilegious. ie. someone can make a pipe for you and give it to you and it will be sacred if it was made with sacred intent, but you can't go to a store and buy one and have it be sacred.

Also, I wasn't around to participate so I can't object too much, but this thread couldn't possibly have gone farther off base from what I intended it to be if I'd led it there by the hand.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

taking money for sacred things strips the sacredness in many Native cultures.

If I don't believe I'm stripping the sacredness* of Christianity when I use holy water to wash my crotch, why should I believe I'm stripping the sacredness from the Sioux if I buy a tribal drum?







*And what the fuck does that mean?  A fetishistic attachment to an inanimate object?

OK, I just got home a bit ago and am only halfway through the thread, but I wanted to say that accepting payment for a supposedly sacred object strips that specific object of its sacredness in many Native American cultures and is therefore considered sacrilegious. ie. someone can make a pipe for you and give it to you and it will be sacred if it was made with sacred intent, but you can't go to a store and buy one and have it be sacred.

Also, I wasn't around to participate so I can't object too much, but this thread couldn't possibly have gone farther off base from what I intended it to be if I'd led it there by the hand.

It's a PD trope.  Once an argument starts, you cannot stop it until it has been beaten into bloody pulp and everyone has a chance to chew on it.

I kinda dig it at times.  Until I get sick of the argument.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Are familiar with the concept of "socialization"? Culture is, by definition, encoded into our early socialization. You can move physically away from your culture of origin, and yes, it is possible to be adopted into another culture, but it is impossible to abandon your culture of origin while remaining physically embedded in it.

Yes. Quite familiar. Your constant put-downs are somewhat tedious, Nigel.

However, I'm afraid, I disagree. And I think on reflection you will also disagree with your own statement.

I posit that it is possible (though hard) to shed/transcend/optionalise your culture while remaining physically in it (i.e. while continuing to live in a neighbourhood inhabited by people who belong to the same or similar cultures).

Furthermore, I posit that that is the way out of the Predicament^TM that the fair-to-middling pamphlet entitled Black Iron Prison offers its readers.

Refute that. Without insults, if possible, but with insults will also do.

How in the fuck is that a put-down?  Most people who haven't taken sociology or psychology aren't particularly familiar with it in the context I used it in, and your reply indicates that you aren't, either.