So What's A White Boy To Do?

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Whether that's true or not, my point still stands, once you put something into the market, you cannot have any reasonable expectation to be able to control how it is used.  And you are kidding yourself if you think only outsiders are sellong these cultural items, they are not.  Plenty of NA tribes willingly andpurposefully sell their stuff to outsiders to make money.  It's like any other culture in any other part of the world selling traditional items to rich tourists.  Once you put it out there, it's out there.

I don't think I'm "kidding myself" so much as you're "not actually reading what I wrote". You can misrepresent what I actually said as many times as you want, but repeating it doesn't make it true. I'm done explaining, because you're either misunderstanding wilfully or you're misunderstanding because you have a cognitive problem, and either way it's a waste of my time to keep trying to clarify for you.

[AFK]

You still have white people selling Native stuff as "sacred", either willfully because they want money, or thinking that if it *looks* like a sacred drum, it must be a sacred drum. I would hazard a guess that white people are the ones selling most of the stuff, tbh.

Prove it.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

You know, I thought I had an understanding of this finally but now I'm all confused again.
Is something being sacred a personal thing or does an object have an inherent sacredness? Think that's the root of my confusion.

It depends.

But the problem I'm having with this conversation is that a whole bunch of people are caught up on the THINGS, when what I'm talking about is the INTENT. That's in the people, not the things.

And anyone who thinks there isn't a significant contingent of white boys (and girls) who buy indian drums because they want to buy into tribal identity has apparently never met one of the people we are so affectionately referring to here as "Cherohonkeys". Who, actually, are in some sense the people this thread is about, because they are the type of disenfranchised people I'm asking about.

There are layers and layers of racism at play in the word "Cherohonkey" itself, and at some point I'd love to discuss blood-quantum law and how horrific and backward it is. But first it might be nice to clear up the distinction between the objects and the people. RWHN doesn't seem to get that just because an object is the same in every material way as one used for sacred purposes, it doesn't make it a sacred object. Does anyone else have that issue? Can we yalk about it and maybe clarify it a little?

I get it fine but it's a moot point once the objects are purposefully being sold to people outside of the culture.  At that point, yeah, clearly the objects aren't meant for their sacred intent, at which point, it shouldn't matter what the intent of the buyer is, because at that point, it's just a commercial good like any other commercial good.

Why are you still hung up on the completely erroneous notion that the area of contention is the intent of the buyer, when I have repeatedly stated that it isn't?

Because you keep talking about it, the misappropriation, that would be the buyer doing the misappropriating, yes?    I mean, that's the crux of it otherwise there wouldn't be a problem to discuss.

OK. ONE more attempt:

It's the person profiting who is misappropriating the culture and using it to market their snake oil, which is why my original example was about fake shamans selling entry to fake inipi ceremonies.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Fuck it, you're going back on ignore.

[AFK]

You know, I thought I had an understanding of this finally but now I'm all confused again.
Is something being sacred a personal thing or does an object have an inherent sacredness? Think that's the root of my confusion.

It depends.

But the problem I'm having with this conversation is that a whole bunch of people are caught up on the THINGS, when what I'm talking about is the INTENT. That's in the people, not the things.

And anyone who thinks there isn't a significant contingent of white boys (and girls) who buy indian drums because they want to buy into tribal identity has apparently never met one of the people we are so affectionately referring to here as "Cherohonkeys". Who, actually, are in some sense the people this thread is about, because they are the type of disenfranchised people I'm asking about.

There are layers and layers of racism at play in the word "Cherohonkey" itself, and at some point I'd love to discuss blood-quantum law and how horrific and backward it is. But first it might be nice to clear up the distinction between the objects and the people. RWHN doesn't seem to get that just because an object is the same in every material way as one used for sacred purposes, it doesn't make it a sacred object. Does anyone else have that issue? Can we yalk about it and maybe clarify it a little?

I get it fine but it's a moot point once the objects are purposefully being sold to people outside of the culture.  At that point, yeah, clearly the objects aren't meant for their sacred intent, at which point, it shouldn't matter what the intent of the buyer is, because at that point, it's just a commercial good like any other commercial good.

Why are you still hung up on the completely erroneous notion that the area of contention is the intent of the buyer, when I have repeatedly stated that it isn't?

Because you keep talking about it, the misappropriation, that would be the buyer doing the misappropriating, yes?    I mean, that's the crux of it otherwise there wouldn't be a problem to discuss.

OK. ONE more attempt:

It's the person profiting who is misappropriating the culture and using it to market their snake oil, which is why my original example was about fake shamans selling entry to fake inipi ceremonies.

Okay, fine, but what about the Natives who are selling to the very same white people?

[AFK]

I think maybe MY point is getting lost by you.  I obviously get the beef with the people outside of the Native culture misappropriating and selling copies, replicas, etc., of Native culture items.  I've stipulated that a couple of times now.  However, as I said, I know that Natives also sell their actual cultural items to outsiders.  And in both cases, the outsiders have the same motivations to buy. 


I have brought this point up because,maybe not by you, but some in this thread have brought up the issue of how the buyer behaves with these purchased items.  So my point to that is that the Natives would have to also look to themselves because they would be contributing to that issue by putting their cultural items on the marketplace.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I think maybe MY point is getting lost by you.  I obviously get the beef with the people outside of the Native culture misappropriating and selling copies, replicas, etc., of Native culture items.  I've stipulated that a couple of times now.  However, as I said, I know that Natives also sell their actual cultural items to outsiders.  And in both cases, the outsiders have the same motivations to buy. 


I have brought this point up because,maybe not by you, but some in this thread have brought up the issue of how the buyer behaves with these purchased items.  So my point to that is that the Natives would have to also look to themselves because they would be contributing to that issue by putting their cultural items on the marketplace.

But the fact that it's a cultural item doesn't make it a sacred item. Does that make any sense to you? It can be identical in workmanship and design, but that doesn't make it sacred. A guy can make rawhide drums all day long and sell them in a shop, and those drums are not sacred. The same guy can make an identical rawhide drum, say that it's sacred, and give it to his friend, and that drum is sacred. Regardless of the race of the friend. That friend can then say to her daughter, here's a sacred drum given to me by a dear friend, and give it to her, and the drum is sacred. The daughter's junkie boyfriend steals the drum and sells it to some random guy, now it isn't sacred anymore. Say the guy happens to know the girl it was stolen from and gives it back to her, now the drum's sanctity has been restored. Yes, it's illogical; it's religion.

Further, indians who DO purport to sell the sacredness and the religious ceremonies (SELL, mind you, not share) are very often considered traitors, and are often ostracized or disowned. It creates huge, drawn-out dramas in the Native community.

[Juana]

You still have white people selling Native stuff as "sacred", either willfully because they want money, or thinking that if it *looks* like a sacred drum, it must be a sacred drum. I would hazard a guess that white people are the ones selling most of the stuff, tbh.

Prove it.

Uh, a lot of that shit is sold as Native American, in my observation, sold as "sacred". I'm pretty sure most Native sellers aren't going to sell sacred objects (excluding the traitors Nigel mentioned). A lot of it is inaccurate - a mishmash of tribes that resembles the stereotype of Natives that we have (and rather than specifically say which tribe, it just says "Indian" or "Native American", unless it's something the tribe is famous for, like Navajo pots). A lot of "Native American" stuff is sold by retailers, like Forever 21 and Urban Outfitters, or shit like food or makeup. You can also tell when the women (because it's most often women depicted, unless it's an Indian head and then it's usually men) look like white girls in Native garb.

Also,
What's in a Name? Can Native Americans Control Outsiders' Use of their Tribal Names?
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rachel-kane/forever-21-columbus-day_b_1000788.html
http://beyondbuckskin.blogspot.com/2012/02/etsy-is-breeding-ground-for.html

I think maybe MY point is getting lost by you.  I obviously get the beef with the people outside of the Native culture misappropriating and selling copies, replicas, etc., of Native culture items.  I've stipulated that a couple of times now.  However, as I said, I know that Natives also sell their actual cultural items to outsiders.  And in both cases, the outsiders have the same motivations to buy. 


I have brought this point up because,maybe not by you, but some in this thread have brought up the issue of how the buyer behaves with these purchased items.  So my point to that is that the Natives would have to also look to themselves because they would be contributing to that issue by putting their cultural items on the marketplace.

Appropriation on the part of the buyer - and assuming the pipe you just bought from the tourist trap down the way is sacred IS such IMO - is still appropriation. It's tacking an idea about the seller's culture onto the item because the buyer wants to feel like they bought something *~special~*, regardless of what the seller told them.

[Juana]

It's presumptuous, if nothing else.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

So, back to the original scenario I was talking about: the reason many Native Americans object to non-Natives (and, as I've said about four times now, Natives as well) SELLING what are misrepresented as sacred ceremonies and objects, usually under the guise of being sanctioned by some tribe or tribal elder, is because they feel that it is a sort of cultural slander. It's a type of impersonation, like impersonating a doctor or a lawyer, only there are no laws against it.

Imagine, for a moment, that there is a man in your town purporting to do what you do, only he goes into schools and teaches some really, really fucked-up stuff. He's getting paid for it, making total bank, and he's really popular, but he's disseminating total misinformation, using your agency's name.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

For the record, although I'm sure there are people out there, neither I nor any indians I know have ANY problem with selling Native American arts and crafts, or Native American-inspired arts and crafts. That's a non-issue. Outright misrepresentation, racist packaging, and etc. are what's offensive. Being offended by something isn't the same thing as trying to control other people's behavior, and trying to explain that it's offensive, and why, is also not trying to control other people's behavior; it's operating under the assumption, perhaps misguided, that most people are decent human beings who would rather not behave offensively, and would rather be aware of things that give offense than to unwittingly go around offending people.

[AFK]

So, back to the original scenario I was talking about: the reason many Native Americans object to non-Natives (and, as I've said about four times now, Natives as well) SELLING what are misrepresented as sacred ceremonies and objects, usually under the guise of being sanctioned by some tribe or tribal elder, is because they feel that it is a sort of cultural slander. It's a type of impersonation, like impersonating a doctor or a lawyer, only there are no laws against it.

Imagine, for a moment, that there is a man in your town purporting to do what you do, only he goes into schools and teaches some really, really fucked-up stuff. He's getting paid for it, making total bank, and he's really popular, but he's disseminating total misinformation, using your agency's name.

Like I said, I get the argument about the phonies selling phonies.  But it really felt like in a few places in this thread, or maybe it was one of the other ones, that people were getting mad at the buyers, and my thing with that is you don't know the intention of the buyer.  Many peole I know who like to have Native American things like to have them out of a deep respect for the culture.  It isn't to be some pretentious hipster dipshit.  So I get your argument, I just think it is important to not be too cynical and assume every personbuying this stuff is aninsensitive idiot.

[Juana]

I think most people don't realize they're being insensitive.

[AFK]

Jeezus, give the unquestioning cynicism a rest.  Is your glass ever half-full?

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I also have to add that an incredible percentage of the white population seem to have this absolutely bizarre notion that everything Native American is in some way sacred or ceremonial. Hair clips, socks, window decorations, whatever. If people in a reservation gift shop are making that assumption, that's really not the seller's problem. I've never been in a reservation gift shop that didn't have little informative cards or pamphlets explaining that the crafts are not ceremonial items, but for some reason it seems like a large percentage of the population REALLY REALLY want that dreamcatcher to actually be sacred, and no amount of explaining that it's JUST ORNAMENTAL can't dissuade them.