So What's A White Boy To Do?

[Dildo Argentino]

The fact is that you think I am an unpleasant asshole.

Yeah, well, in social situations, perception is everything.

Actually, no. It is important, but far from everything.

Also, this is barely a social situation. Antisocial situation may be a better term.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Actually, no. It is important, but far from everything.

Nope.  It's the whole enchilada.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Why do people keep responding to him?

Because there's nothing else going on, and I'm bored.

[Freeky]

because it's part of our sacred culture.

Victory. You has it. 

[Dildo Argentino]

Actually, no. It is important, but far from everything.

Nope.  It's the whole enchilada.

You can go all epistemological about it, in which case I want to be the Cartesian demon.

But otherwise, going that way is quite boring. Thinking that perception is everything in a social situation, however, fits in quite nicely with the extreme bouts of prejudice you are in the habit of suffering.

In actual fact, I think you'll find and all that: a social situation is all about perception, and it is all about being willing to assume and explore the possibility that not everything is what it seems, that some (actually most) things and people cannot be fully known at a single glance... it is also about experience, history, emotion (those of all parties involved). Get my drift? Or keep punching. I no longer care, which is liberating for the time being.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

and it is all about being willing to assume and explore the possibility that not everything is what it seems,

So, you should act like a callous prick to people like Twid, and we should all sit around trying to figure out what you're really like inside?



Fuck off.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

It's not that people can't HAVE sacred indian objects, it's that they can't BUY them.

But wouldn't you think that the people buying them don't really consider those objects sacred in the first place?

Additionally, I wouldn't think that 'sacredness' is a finite resource.  If you have a sacred (to you) drum, and someone buys it, making it no longer sacred (to you), can't you just make another sacred (to you) drum?

I'm clearly not doing a good job of explaining my point. No one thinks that sacredness is finite, and nobody gives a flying fuck about selling drums or pipes or whatever as long as they are not being sold under the lie that they are sacred objects being sold with some kind of approval or sanction from a tribe. The original point I was trying to make about the fake inipi ceremonies is that it is an affront to Native culture when people PRETEND to sell the sacred to gullible and unsuspecting wannabes, because it causes people to believe something false about Natives; that we do commerce in what we consider holy.

People do try to buy Native American sacredness... sacred experiences and sacred objects... all the time. Remember, it isn't far-fetched for many non-natives to believe that they can purchase holiness, because the Catholic Church has been doing commerce in sacred objects and indulgences for a long long time, and now the modern evangelists have picked up the torch on doing it. So when someone misrepresents themselves as a Native American, by blood or adoption, and sells experiences or objects they claim are sacred, they are speaking for, and misrepresenting, Native American culture and beliefs, and that's why many Native Americans find that offensive.

An analogy that might make sense to you is when people who have a PhD are selling their opinions by calling themselves "Dr.", and receive a court injunction to stop calling themselves "Dr.", because they are not allowed to falsely represent themselves as medical doctors when they are not. Except there's no law against falseley representing yourself as a Native American holy person, or any other kind of holy person. Still, maybe that helps explain exactly what is offensive, and why people may find it offensive.

MIND YOU, not all tribes have a problem with selling sacred objects. But oddly, the ones that are sold most typically, do.

[Mangrove]

Actually, no. It is important, but far from everything.

Nope.  It's the whole enchilada.

You can go all epistemological about it, in which case I want to be the Cartesian demon.

But otherwise, going that way is quite boring. Thinking that perception is everything in a social situation, however, fits in quite nicely with the extreme bouts of prejudice you are in the habit of suffering.

In actual fact, I think you'll find and all that: a social situation is all about perception, and it is all about being willing to assume and explore the possibility that not everything is what it seems, that some (actually most) things and people cannot be fully known at a single glance... it is also about experience, history, emotion (those of all parties involved). Get my drift? Or keep punching. I no longer care, which is liberating for the time being.

Attn: People reading this thread. I called Descarte 3 weeks ago. I HAZ POWERZ!!

[Sita]

It's not that people can't HAVE sacred indian objects, it's that they can't BUY them.

But wouldn't you think that the people buying them don't really consider those objects sacred in the first place?

Additionally, I wouldn't think that 'sacredness' is a finite resource.  If you have a sacred (to you) drum, and someone buys it, making it no longer sacred (to you), can't you just make another sacred (to you) drum?

I'm clearly not doing a good job of explaining my point. No one thinks that sacredness is finite, and nobody gives a flying fuck about selling drums or pipes or whatever as long as they are not being sold under the lie that they are sacred objects being sold with some kind of approval or sanction from a tribe. The original point I was trying to make about the fake inipi ceremonies is that it is an affront to Native culture when people PRETEND to sell the sacred to gullible and unsuspecting wannabes, because it causes people to believe something false about Natives; that we do commerce in what we consider holy.

People do try to buy Native American sacredness... sacred experiences and sacred objects... all the time. Remember, it isn't far-fetched for many non-natives to believe that they can purchase holiness, because the Catholic Church has been doing commerce in sacred objects and indulgences for a long long time, and now the modern evangelists have picked up the torch on doing it. So when someone misrepresents themselves as a Native American, by blood or adoption, and sells experiences or objects they claim are sacred, they are speaking for, and misrepresenting, Native American culture and beliefs, and that's why many Native Americans find that offensive.

An analogy that might make sense to you is when people who have a PhD are selling their opinions by calling themselves "Dr.", and receive a court injunction to stop calling themselves "Dr.", because they are not allowed to falsely represent themselves as medical doctors when they are not. Except there's no law against falseley representing yourself as a Native American holy person, or any other kind of holy person. Still, maybe that helps explain exactly what is offensive, and why people may find it offensive.

MIND YOU, not all tribes have a problem with selling sacred objects. But oddly, the ones that are sold most typically, do.

That actually makes sense to me. If I'm understanding right.
It's not the sacredness of the object being sold that they are upset about, but the fact that the people wearing or using that object is potentially giving a bad message about the culture. So most tribes would like to make sure that the person has respect for the meaning of the drum, just as example, before taking possession of it. Which most who use money to get it typically don't.

[AFK]

I dunno, save for hard-core traditionalists, I've found that many tribes have no problem at all selling sacred symbols of their culture to middle-class white people.  There is a tribe in these parts that co-locate their pow-wow with the Moxie festival and sell all kinds of shit.  Drums, pipes, etc.,  But I think most cultures will do this because the thing is, there is a demand for it.  Some of it is materialistic hipsterism, but I think there is also a decent amount of sincere interest and fondness for a culture that is different than their own.  And on some level I think that's cool.  I'd rather have a lot of that instead a lot of "Assimilate or GTFO" attitudes.  Some peope may have a clumsy, at best, appreciation and understanding of the article of culture they are buying, but I don't think that needs to be offensive.  Some people just don't have the capacity to go that deep, but it's cool that they want to be inclusive and bonding with other cultures even if they can't internally move much further than the superficial.

[Dildo Argentino]

and it is all about being willing to assume and explore the possibility that not everything is what it seems,

So, you should act like a callous prick to people like Twid, and we should all sit around trying to figure out what you're really like inside?



Fuck off.

You are such a pathetic man, I cannot but feel for you.

See, quite apart from the fact that I don't think I acted like a callous prick to Twid, it also seems that Twid doesn't really seem to think I'm acting like a callous prick towards him, either.

But we should be more careful not to infringe your sensitivies...

You remind me of a grumpy old guard dog, eyesight almost gone, nose not so good anymore, jumping at shadows. And that's the truth.

[Dildo Argentino]

You also remind me of this song:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-RwjpG4Xh60

And the really funny thing is you would probably say I remind you of that song.

I could be wrong, though, has been known to happen.

And finally, the problem I perceive with you, big boy:

You are perfectly happy to be who you are.

Which is unjustified, because in fact you could be a great deal better.

You are in the right direction, but not far enough.

[Cain]

Holist, you remind me of this song  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bINYgVtRVjU

[East Coast Hustle]

Except that nobody said you might be a biped after all. 

I think you'll find, oh All-Seeing-One, that somebody did.

We agreed with you on a couple of things.

Yes.

Fact is, you're an unpleasant asshole.

Actually, the fact is somewhat different to that.
The fact is that you think I am an unpleasant asshole.

Coming from such an accomplished unpleasant asshole as yourself, I should take that opinion seriously.

But I can't, because I know I am not an unpleasant asshole. I get plenty of feedback, from plenty of people who have not only read a couple of hundred things I've written for a bunch of American nutters, but who actually have known me for years. So I know. You ain't talking me out of it, comprende?

That can be okay, if you're funny about it.

It can even be okay if you are not funny about it. You yourself are living proof.

You aren't.

Not your kind of funny.

Who the fuck you calling an American, shitheel?

I think it's time for an Unlimited thread for holist, starting with his most recent attention-whoring wankery ITT.

[Cain]

Motion seconded.  With the unfortunate absence of Trip, the motion passes.  Have at it.