Persistence VS Hope

[Salty]

I know I live in a prison.

That's why I have hope.

When I'm sitting around my cell, knowing full well what it is, despite the heavy curtain and the new carpet, I have to have some little place to put the POWER of my POSITIVE THOUGHTS about my future. Otherwise it would be scattered around the cell, taking up valuable space. So I build a small shrine out of tiny bits and pieces of broken things, and I sit next to it every now and again, putting up an offering of optimism and good intention.

And what a total fucking waste of time that is. Necessary, unavoidable in the human body, but nearly pointless. Hope functions the same way CPR keeps the brain alive for harvesting, most of the time. It has it's uses, is what I'm saying.

But persistence does what hope cannot: ACT. Sure, I may persist in the hope of breaking out of my cell, or merely in the hope that I can get some color in here. But I can't act if I'm sitting by that god damned shrine all god damned day long. I have to get my ass up and MOVE. And hope alone will not even compel me to do this. Persistence can so often be done for its own sake.

I know I'm in a prison, and I'm fairly certain I can't get past these wall. But if I continue to look for ways past it I will gain other, more valuable abilities.

Or I could just keep staring at this shrine.

OR KILL ME





*TL;DR: HOPE IS DILDOES

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Hope kills... despair is only tiresome.

[Aucoq]

I couldn't agree more, Alty.  The Ancient Greeks believed that hope was an evil (hence why it was in Pandora's box).  A man could spend his entire life in a bad situation because hope makes him believe he'll one day get out of it.  But without hope the same man wouldn't think he'd one day get out of the situation and therefore would pragmatically work to get out of it.  I like that.

[EK WAFFLR]

I agree wholeheartedly, Alty!

Hope kills... despair is only tiresome.

I totally misread that as "Hope kills... despair is only threesome".

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I agree wholeheartedly, Alty!

Hope kills... despair is only tiresome.

I totally misread that as "Hope kills... despair is only threesome".

THREESOME OF DESPAIR

I think I might write a short erotica novel about that. 

[AFK]

I couldn't agree more, Alty.  The Ancient Greeks believed that hope was an evil (hence why it was in Pandora's box).  A man could spend his entire life in a bad situation because hope makes him believe he'll one day get out of it.  But without hope the same man wouldn't think he'd one day get out of the situation and therefore would pragmatically work to get out of it.  I like that.

I disagree.  Despair breeds and encourages resignation and inaction.  If you think you can't change anything then why the fuck should you bother. 


I believe there is a place for Hope* as opposed to Hope.


Hope* isn't about envisioning pie-in-the sky goals.  If you set unrealistic goals, and you fall far short, then you are  just setting up an environment ripe for Despair.


Hope* is about short term, medium term, and long term goals.  It is strategic planning.  It's about achievable baby steps. 


There really isn't any motivation for pragmatism in Despair.  But, Hope* mandates pragmatism and constant re-evaluation.

[Dildo Argentino]

The Ancient Greeks believed that hope was an evil (hence why it was in Pandora's box).  A man could spend his entire life in a bad situation because hope makes him believe he'll one day get out of it.  But without hope the same man wouldn't think he'd one day get out of the situation and therefore would pragmatically work to get out of it.  I like that.

But the thing is, according to Hesiod's Works and Days, for some unexplained reason Hope didn't actually come out of Pandora's jar when it was opened: it was in fact the only thing that stayed in there. This suggests that while the ancient Greeks may have considered hope an evil, it had a rather special status. Also, the myth of Pandora seems nothing but a patriarchal sanitation meme, propaganda against clever and wilful women... how is it relevant?

[Dildo Argentino]

From this:

... I sit next to it every now and again...

to this:

But I can't act if I'm sitting by that god damned shrine all god damned day long."

Quite a slide, don't you think, Alty? every now and again does not equal all god-damned day long.

Like "moderation in all things"?

Hope has its uses if its realistic, positive (which, incidentally, doesn't mean happy or cheerful but "to do with what is" - as opposed to wishful thinking. So does persistence. Together, they can accomplish great things. And in fact they often go together. This is because realistic confidence in one's ability and inclination to persist in difficult situations actually engenders hope.

[Dildo Argentino]

I couldn't agree more, Alty.  The Ancient Greeks believed that hope was an evil (hence why it was in Pandora's box).  A man could spend his entire life in a bad situation because hope makes him believe he'll one day get out of it.  But without hope the same man wouldn't think he'd one day get out of the situation and therefore would pragmatically work to get out of it.  I like that.

I disagree.  Despair breeds and encourages resignation and inaction.  If you think you can't change anything then why the fuck should you bother. 


I believe there is a place for Hope* as opposed to Hope.


Hope* isn't about envisioning pie-in-the sky goals.  If you set unrealistic goals, and you fall far short, then you are  just setting up an environment ripe for Despair.


Hope* is about short term, medium term, and long term goals.  It is strategic planning.  It's about achievable baby steps. 


There really isn't any motivation for pragmatism in Despair.  But, Hope* mandates pragmatism and constant re-evaluation.

So yessss. If I knew how to make them clapping hands or could be bothered to find out I would put a few here.

[Salty]

From this:

... I sit next to it every now and again...

to this:

But I can't act if I'm sitting by that god damned shrine all god damned day long."

Quite a slide, don't you think, Alty? every now and again does not equal all god-damned day long.

Like "moderation in all things"?

Hope has its uses if its realistic, positive (which, incidentally, doesn't mean happy or cheerful but "to do with what is" - as opposed to wishful thinking. So does persistence. Together, they can accomplish great things. And in fact they often go together. This is because realistic confidence in one's ability and inclination to persist in difficult situations actually engenders hope.

LOOK KIDS, THIS BEAR THINKS IT'S PEOPLE. THAT IS ADORABLE.






Anyway, I would like to make it clear that I in now way meant to address the issue of despair. If hope is a little shrine made of broken bits and pieces within your cell, I'd say despair is very similar but on the pessimistic side of things.

But I am NOT talking about giving up. I'm saying that persistence can be maintained for its own sake, for the enjoyment of the act itself, without any need for belief-based forced emotional states.

[Dildo Argentino]

LOOK KIDS, THIS BEAR THINKS IT'S PEOPLE. THAT IS ADORABLE.

Worse still, it thinks it's people what can talk to a squid!

Anyway, I would like to make it clear that I in now way meant to address the issue of despair. If hope is a little shrine made of broken bits and pieces within your cell, I'd say despair is very similar but on the pessimistic side of things.

But I am NOT talking about giving up. I'm saying that persistence can be maintained for its own sake, for the enjoyment of the act itself, without any need for belief-based forced emotional states.

Sliding still. You were slagging hope in general. In actual fact, unrealistic hope is a killer, realistic hope is often a great comforter/fortifier. Is all.

[Aucoq]

Despair breeds and encourages resignation and inaction.

...

There really isn't any motivation for pragmatism in Despair. 

I think I worded my previous post badly so I apologize for any misunderstandings.

Despair does breed and encourage resignation and inaction.  Let's say your house is burning down around you.  You think there's no way you're going to get out of the house.  So what do you do?  You accept your fate and die.

But to me hope means desiring something to happen without doing anything to make it happen.  You hope you get a promotion at work, but you don't do anything to get said promotion.  You hope your hot neighbor falls in love with you, but you don't make any effort to make that happen.

So your house is burning down around you.  So you sit around, hope someone saves you or you survive, and eventually die.  (Note that the actions/inactions and end results of both despair and hope are the same thing.  You don't do anything to help yourself and die as a result.  It's only the mindset that has changed.)

To me, it's not an either/or though.  Let's say you work in a cubicle.  You're a data clerk or something.  You want to get that promotion or raise.  So you work your ass off, brown nose your boss, and whatever else to try to get that promotion or raise.  You don't have to believe it's possible to get that promotion or raise.  You don't have to hope you get it.  All you have to do is try to get it.

Going back to the fire example. . .  If you wake up to your home burning down you don't have to hope you survive or hope someone saves you.  You can just start trying to save yourself.  If you do, you might live.  Or you might die.  But you know what?  I promise your odds of surviving are better if you do something than if you just sit there and let the fire consume you.

Tl;dr: To me, both despair and hope breeds and encourages resignation and inaction.  The only difference between the two is in the positive/negative mindset.

If you think you can't change anything then why the fuck should you bother.

I think most people have that mindset.  I personally don't.  And I think such a mindset is cowardly and wrong.  But that's another subject for another day.

I believe there is a place for Hope* as opposed to Hope.


Hope* isn't about envisioning pie-in-the sky goals.  If you set unrealistic goals, and you fall far short, then you are  just setting up an environment ripe for Despair.


Hope* is about short term, medium term, and long term goals.  It is strategic planning.  It's about achievable baby steps. 


There really isn't any motivation for pragmatism in Despair.  But, Hope* mandates pragmatism and constant re-evaluation.

I agree with this.  I think the difference between us is that, for me, hope is "hope without action."  But I don't have a problem with "hope reinforced with action."  But to me "hope reinforced with action" is a goal, maybe an optimistic goal.


If you only stare at your hot neighbor every day as she goes to and from work, dreaming about her busting down your front door and ravaging you out of nowhere is a hope.  But if you wine and dine her, buy her flowers, or whatever, expecting her to ravage you in return is a goal (albeit an optimistic goal) because you're working towards it.

With all that said, I'm not trying to say my view of hope is THE view of hope.  It's just my view of hope and is why I agreed with the OP.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

It kind of relates to The Little Engine That Could; "I think I can" is hope, "I know I can" is determination.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I have had many nasty run-ins with hope, and I try to banish it from my vocabulary in terms of applying it to my own life. To me, "hope" means the same as "probably not". Do I hope something will happen, or am I motivated to work toward it? Do I hope to get my PhD at OHSU, or am I planning to get my PhD at OHSU?

To me, hope feels disempowering. It feels like abdicating responsibility and surrendering to outside forces.

[Aucoq]

But the thing is, according to Hesiod's Works and Days, for some unexplained reason Hope didn't actually come out of Pandora's jar when it was opened: it was in fact the only thing that stayed in there. This suggests that while the ancient Greeks may have considered hope an evil, it had a rather special status. Also, the myth of Pandora seems nothing but a patriarchal sanitation meme, propaganda against clever and wilful women... how is it relevant?

I mentioned the Pandora myth as an example of how the ancient Greeks (at least during Hesiod's time) viewed hope.  The fact that the story is ultimately a tale of how women are the cause of all the problems in the world doesn't matter.

I have had many nasty run-ins with hope, and I try to banish it from my vocabulary in terms of applying it to my own life. To me, "hope" means the same as "probably not". Do I hope something will happen, or am I motivated to work toward it? Do I hope to get my PhD at OHSU, or am I planning to get my PhD at OHSU?

To me, hope feels disempowering. It feels like abdicating responsibility and surrendering to outside forces.

I really like that.  I had never thought of it as disempowering before.  I think you're absolutely right.