Shooting at CT Elementary School. WTF AMERICA?!

[The Good Reverend Roger]

If anyone wants to see "individualism" in action, go look at houston free thinkers on Facebook.

There's your individualism.

[Elder Iptuous]

it seems a little too CT to me.  possible, i guess, but wouldn't it have to be a large scale effort to push this on the public (considering the forces you mention which would work in the exact opposite direction) over a terribly long time?  it seems that it would be outed by now if that were the case.

fun to think about, though

[The Good Reverend Roger]

it seems a little too CT to me. 

Well, let's consider the facts:

1.  People who are definitely dependent on society refer to themselves as "rugged individualists".

2.  From 1945-1993, individualism was frowned upon.

3.  From 1993-present, right wing propaganda has unceasingly brayed about the "individualist".

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

it seems a little too CT to me.  possible, i guess, but wouldn't it have to be a large scale effort to push this on the public (considering the forces you mention which would work in the exact opposite direction) over a terribly long time?  it seems that it would be outed by now if that were the case.

fun to think about, though

Since when is "marketing" a conspiracy theory? 

The whole "Rugged Frontier Individualist Society" thing never made any sense to me, for reasons I've already explained. Huge swathes of our American mythology come from marketing campaigns, and this particular one, so neat and tidy, definitely fits that model well. It seems a hell of a lot more plausible than the idea that it arose spontaneously.

[Cain]

http://www.amazon.com/Manufacturing-Discontent-Individualism-Corporate-Society/dp/0745324061

[The Good Reverend Roger]

it seems a little too CT to me.  possible, i guess, but wouldn't it have to be a large scale effort to push this on the public (considering the forces you mention which would work in the exact opposite direction) over a terribly long time?  it seems that it would be outed by now if that were the case.

fun to think about, though

Since when is "marketing" a conspiracy theory? 

Since it started working.  Ever since the 8 circuit model was adopted, in other words.  They figured out that ads with women draped over cars sold magazines with the ads, not the cars themselves.  So they went with the 8 circuit model, discredited Leary (with his assistance), and then put the shit to work.  That's why the 8 circuit model is found in marketing and political science classes, but not psychology classes.

You can't swing a dead cat without hitting an example of the model in use.  Every commercial on TV, for example.

So it's a CT.  It's just a CT that happens to be TRUE.

[Elder Iptuous]

it seems a little too CT to me.  possible, i guess, but wouldn't it have to be a large scale effort to push this on the public (considering the forces you mention which would work in the exact opposite direction) over a terribly long time?  it seems that it would be outed by now if that were the case.

fun to think about, though

Since when is "marketing" a conspiracy theory? 

The whole "Rugged Frontier Individualist Society" thing never made any sense to me, for reasons I've already explained. Huge swathes of our American mythology come from marketing campaigns, and this particular one, so neat and tidy, definitely fits that model well. It seems a hell of a lot more plausible than the idea that it arose spontaneously.

maybe you're right, but i was under the impression that "marketing" was pretty straight forward at the time the individualism theme became prominent in our country.  (which was when? if it is the result of a campaign, it would have a pretty clear demarcation of origin, wouldn't it?)

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I am fascinated by the idea of individualism as a corporate product. It makes more sense to explain that facet of American culture than any other explanation I've heard. It's interesting to me because individualism is fundamentally detrimental to communities, yet it is so strongly ingrained in our culture.

I believe the New Left has produced a significant amount of literature on this topic.

I haven't read much of it, but the reading I have done suggests that there is a certain element of truth to it.  Though I would suggest it is a specifically oligarchical/plutocratic product, most corporations caring more about making money than stifling dissent.

All corporations care about is making money, which means that they will stifle dissent (or encourage it) when it's financially expedient.

I mean, look at Venezuela.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

http://www.amazon.com/Manufacturing-Discontent-Individualism-Corporate-Society/dp/0745324061

Thanks, Cain!

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

it seems a little too CT to me.  possible, i guess, but wouldn't it have to be a large scale effort to push this on the public (considering the forces you mention which would work in the exact opposite direction) over a terribly long time?  it seems that it would be outed by now if that were the case.

fun to think about, though

Since when is "marketing" a conspiracy theory? 

The whole "Rugged Frontier Individualist Society" thing never made any sense to me, for reasons I've already explained. Huge swathes of our American mythology come from marketing campaigns, and this particular one, so neat and tidy, definitely fits that model well. It seems a hell of a lot more plausible than the idea that it arose spontaneously.

maybe you're right, but i was under the impression that "marketing" was pretty straight forward at the time the individualism theme became prominent in our country.  (which was when? if it is the result of a campaign, it would have a pretty clear demarcation of origin, wouldn't it?)

Why are you asking me for facts and figures on a concept that I just heard about and said I'm intrigued by? And why are you arguing against the idea of it before I even look into it? Trying to dissuade someone from doing more research is kinda pink, don't you think? Does the idea threaten your worldview so profoundly that you don't even want other people to look into it? WTF.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

An interesting dichotomy exists between television shows and television commercials.

The commercials use the 8 circuit model to emphasize a myth of individuality (some of which are done in a diabolically clever way, like the "Bluebell Ice Cream" commericials), while the shows emphatically state that it's okay for an individualist to conform to the group or submit to authority by his or her own choice (that choice, of course, being an illusion).  Specific examples would be "24", where we "choose to allow" people like Jack Bauer to torture people for the common good, because he's an even more "rugged individualist" than we are, and can therefore be trusted to act in our stead.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

What this means, of course, is that American society has been sold on the idea that they're individualists for really and true, they're just taking a vacation from it while the bigger, meaner individualists fix shit.

Which is, to my mind, horrormirth at its finest.

[Salty]

What I want to know is why do mentally unhealthy Americans keep targeting schools? Isn't that the more critical question? Why not banks or Walmart or the airports or malls or any other crowded place?

When Columbine happened I was in the 7th grade...and was anything but shocked. Our schools are breeding grounds for poor mental health. The only thing that shocks me is how infrequently these things happen. Americans are slowly but surely eating themselves, and they are going to do it with whatever tools on hand.

And it seems many of these people pick places that coincide with critical aspects of their development.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

What I want to know is why do mentally unhealthy Americans keep targeting schools? Isn't that the more critical question? Why not banks or Walmart or the airports or malls or any other crowded place?

Because they're nuts?

[Elder Iptuous]

it seems a little too CT to me.  possible, i guess, but wouldn't it have to be a large scale effort to push this on the public (considering the forces you mention which would work in the exact opposite direction) over a terribly long time?  it seems that it would be outed by now if that were the case.

fun to think about, though

Since when is "marketing" a conspiracy theory? 

The whole "Rugged Frontier Individualist Society" thing never made any sense to me, for reasons I've already explained. Huge swathes of our American mythology come from marketing campaigns, and this particular one, so neat and tidy, definitely fits that model well. It seems a hell of a lot more plausible than the idea that it arose spontaneously.

maybe you're right, but i was under the impression that "marketing" was pretty straight forward at the time the individualism theme became prominent in our country.  (which was when? if it is the result of a campaign, it would have a pretty clear demarcation of origin, wouldn't it?)

Why are you asking me for facts and figures on a concept that I just heard about and said I'm intrigued by? And why are you arguing against the idea of it before I even look into it? Trying to dissuade someone from doing more research is kinda pink, don't you think? Does the idea threaten your worldview so profoundly that you don't even want other people to look into it? WTF.

no.  it was idle chatting.  i wasn't asking for facts and figures, they were rhetorical questions that popped into my head.
you're more than welcome to do research that intrigues you, of course, and far be it from me to attempt to dissuade you.  if you found anything of note, i would be interested to hear it.