Shooting at CT Elementary School. WTF AMERICA?!

[Cain]

Cain, I really appreciate your rationality when it comes to stuff like this.  Everyone else around me is freaking the fuck out, but that ultimately doesn't really answer, or help, the situation.

What's really impressive is I'm being this rational on four hours of sleep.

Just imagine how good I'd be if I actually could think straight

[Sita]

They're always wanting to blame some kind of media (games, music, movies) for these things. It's a bit irritating.

[AFK]

Just proves that people suck at understanding reality.  I mean, fuck, how many people play that game and DON'T go around shooting little kids?  Yeah, like everyone except this asshole. 


No, the common denominator without a doubt is a woefully inadequate mental health system in America. 

[Bu🤠ns]

Just proves that people suck at understanding reality.  I mean, fuck, how many people play that game and DON'T go around shooting little kids?  Yeah, like everyone except this asshole. 


No, the common denominator without a doubt is a woefully inadequate mental health system in America. 

I think an interesting article i'm X-posting from FB  outlines some of these points I've never considered before. (Thanks, poster!)

http://freethoughtblogs.com/ashleymiller/2012/12/14/when-you-tie-shootings-to-mental-illness/

RWHN, is the author here riding the same thoughts you had about that?

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Just proves that people suck at understanding reality.  I mean, fuck, how many people play that game and DON'T go around shooting little kids?  Yeah, like everyone except this asshole. 


No, the common denominator without a doubt is a woefully inadequate mental health system in America. 

I think an interesting article i'm X-posting from FB  outlines some of these points I've never considered before. (Thanks, poster!)

http://freethoughtblogs.com/ashleymiller/2012/12/14/when-you-tie-shootings-to-mental-illness/

RWHN, is the author here riding the same thoughts you had about that?

I certainly have a shit ton of opinions about that blog. First of all, it begs us to normalize antisocial, pathological, violent behavior, which is already far too normalized. It asks us to accept the premise that by saying that a person in a normal healthy state of mind would not open fire on a school full of small children, we are stigmatizing the mentally ill.

That is bullshit.

The author asks us to suspend disbelief so far as to accept as the default assumption that the shooter was mentally healthy. As the rational default assumption. They ask us to accept that there is an absence of evidence, in the face of the fact that 20 schoolchildren are dead for no apparent reason.

Sorry, man. Can't hang with that.

Not all forms of mental illness are the same. I think that the general public actually does understand that. I also think that asking the general public to understand that murdering 20 little kids for no reason is the act of a perfectly psychologically healthy person is asking way, way too much.

[Bu🤠ns]

Just proves that people suck at understanding reality.  I mean, fuck, how many people play that game and DON'T go around shooting little kids?  Yeah, like everyone except this asshole. 


No, the common denominator without a doubt is a woefully inadequate mental health system in America. 

I think an interesting article i'm X-posting from FB  outlines some of these points I've never considered before. (Thanks, poster!)

http://freethoughtblogs.com/ashleymiller/2012/12/14/when-you-tie-shootings-to-mental-illness/

RWHN, is the author here riding the same thoughts you had about that?

I certainly have a shit ton of opinions about that blog. First of all, it begs us to normalize antisocial, pathological, violent behavior, which is already far too normalized. It asks us to accept the premise that by saying that a person in a normal healthy state of mind would not open fire on a school full of small children, we are stigmatizing the mentally ill.

That is bullshit.

The author asks us to suspend disbelief so far as to accept as the default assumption that the shooter was mentally healthy. As the rational default assumption. They ask us to accept that there is an absence of evidence, in the face of the fact that 20 schoolchildren are dead for no apparent reason.

Sorry, man. Can't hang with that.

Not all forms of mental illness are the same. I think that the general public actually does understand that. I also think that asking the general public to understand that murdering 20 little kids for no reason is the act of a perfectly psychologically healthy person is asking way, way too much.

That's interesting.  I agree with all of those points - what I took away from the article was the consideration of other factors in addition to "HE'S A FUCKING NUTCASE!"

Which he clearly was.

I was asking RWHN to elaborate because I was curious as to what reforms are needed in our mental healthcare...which the blog author was trying to get at.  I'm wondering if  there is, perhaps, a better way to make to make her point?

ETA: Are there any reforms that could have prevented this tragedy?

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Just proves that people suck at understanding reality.  I mean, fuck, how many people play that game and DON'T go around shooting little kids?  Yeah, like everyone except this asshole. 


No, the common denominator without a doubt is a woefully inadequate mental health system in America. 

I think an interesting article i'm X-posting from FB  outlines some of these points I've never considered before. (Thanks, poster!)

http://freethoughtblogs.com/ashleymiller/2012/12/14/when-you-tie-shootings-to-mental-illness/

RWHN, is the author here riding the same thoughts you had about that?

I certainly have a shit ton of opinions about that blog. First of all, it begs us to normalize antisocial, pathological, violent behavior, which is already far too normalized. It asks us to accept the premise that by saying that a person in a normal healthy state of mind would not open fire on a school full of small children, we are stigmatizing the mentally ill.

That is bullshit.

The author asks us to suspend disbelief so far as to accept as the default assumption that the shooter was mentally healthy. As the rational default assumption. They ask us to accept that there is an absence of evidence, in the face of the fact that 20 schoolchildren are dead for no apparent reason.

Sorry, man. Can't hang with that.

Not all forms of mental illness are the same. I think that the general public actually does understand that. I also think that asking the general public to understand that murdering 20 little kids for no reason is the act of a perfectly psychologically healthy person is asking way, way too much.

That's interesting.  I agree with all of those points - what I took away from the article was the consideration of other factors in addition to "HE'S A FUCKING NUTCASE!"

Which he clearly was.

I was asking RWHN to elaborate because I was curious as to what reforms are needed in our mental healthcare...which the blog author was trying to get at.  I'm wondering if  there is, perhaps, a better way to make to make her point?

ETA: Are there any reforms that could have prevented this tragedy?

I don't know enough about the shooter to have an opinion. I can say that psychological stress (which can be caused by any number of environmental factors) can drive people to do extraordinary things, including terrible things. If there was extreme psychological stress at play here, then yes, there probably were things that could have been done (or prevented, or stopped) that could have prevented this.

Unfortunately, our society is not really structured or oriented toward prevention. It's structured and oriented toward punishment.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I agree with RWHN that mental health care is desperately inadequate in this country... but that is just one of the many support systems that is woefully lacking. In my opinion, mental and physical healthcare should be free and accessible to everyone, regardless of their socioeconomic status.

[AFK]

Just proves that people suck at understanding reality.  I mean, fuck, how many people play that game and DON'T go around shooting little kids?  Yeah, like everyone except this asshole. 


No, the common denominator without a doubt is a woefully inadequate mental health system in America. 

I think an interesting article i'm X-posting from FB  outlines some of these points I've never considered before. (Thanks, poster!)

http://freethoughtblogs.com/ashleymiller/2012/12/14/when-you-tie-shootings-to-mental-illness/

RWHN, is the author here riding the same thoughts you had about that?

Mmm, not really.  I wouldn't suggest, at all, that the reason we need mental health reforms is because everyone with a mental illness has the potential to become a mass murderer, because clearly many in our society go undiagnosed and they aren't all out shooting people.  That isn't the point.


We need reforms, period, to help individuals.  In this specific case, if the shooter had been diagnosed and was receiving proper care, he may have been set on a different life trajectory, that would lead him towards wellness, and oh yeah, he might have not so easily decided killing 5 year olds was a good idea.


Stigma is a huge part of the issue when it comes to mental health, and so I do get part of what the author is trying to say, which is that goong to mental health in this case is stigmatizing those withmental health issues.  But I'm clearly not saying that at all.  And she is spot on that we must also look at the other contributing factors, like gun laws.


But we do need to invest more in prevention, not just to reduce the chances of things like this happening, but just so we can help more people find a path to wellness, which would have the benefit of likely reducing the chances of things like this happening.  But we need a better system where, when someone says "oh yeah he's had. mental problems for a long time" that person is getting screened and assessed, instead of just letting it linger.

[Anna Mae Bollocks]

Idiots on facebooks are also blaming the shooter's autism and personality disorders.

If your kid has a diagnosis, prepare to have him witch hunted. Might want to consider homeschool if you can afford it.

Agree that brain glitches were probably a contributing factor...but most of these people never kill anybody.

[Cain]

It's almost endearing how positive a view of human nature these people have.

As if people need to have mental defects to go out and kill other people who do not pose a threat to them.

Far better than to face the potential for murder is one most people are born with, and the perhaps hidden fear not of that potential for murder but that potential when unhinged from authority and a chain of command.  Blame it on mental illness, or media, or "ancient hatreds".  But never, ever admit a mentally stable personality can methodically plan and execute multiple murders, despite all the evidence to the contrary.

[Cain]

What a surprise - Gawker are responsible for the incorrect naming of Ryan Lanza as the school shooter, which was then seen by CNN and FOX researchers.

Interesting to note when an internet mob is formed, Gawker is frequently in the thick of the action.

[Cain]

I'd also like to say, regardless of where you may stand on the issue: stringent gun control in the USA is untenable.

Any attempts to seriously regulate gun access would inevitably set off the hardcore nativist ideological types, who frequently have some kind of paramilitary training, top end guns and lots and lots of ammo.

You see where this is going?  Martial Law, in some parts of the USA at least.   Ruby Ridge and Waco redux.  And can you imagine the shitstorm that would follow martial law being imposed and agreed to from the White House, or to enforce what would have to be a White House sponsored law?  Obama is already considered a gun-grabber by vast swathes of the right, despite all evidence to the contrary.

[Elder Iptuous]

true. and besides that, it seems to be a pretty dead on arrival issue, politically.
i came to this conclusion after the Aurora shootings and the media pundits and politicians didn't erupt in support of gun control legislation.  hell, it was hardly mentioned.
so, while i'll still blather about gun control law if it comes up, i no longer have any fear that "they're comin' for mah guuuuns".

Relevant comic.

[insideout]

I'd also like to say, regardless of where you may stand on the issue: stringent gun control in the USA is untenable.

Any attempts to seriously regulate gun access would inevitably set off the hardcore nativist ideological types, who frequently have some kind of paramilitary training, top end guns and lots and lots of ammo.

You see where this is going?  Martial Law, in some parts of the USA at least.   Ruby Ridge and Waco redux.  And can you imagine the shitstorm that would follow martial law being imposed and agreed to from the White House, or to enforce what would have to be a White House sponsored law?  Obama is already considered a gun-grabber by vast swathes of the right, despite all evidence to the contrary.

much of the right likes to demonize obama, but the truth is that even though he campaigned in 2008 with gun control as part of his platform, he effectively has done nothing to implement any increased gun control. Positive measures on gun control are political suicide in the USA, and Obama is nothing if not politically savvy.  Huffington post is hardly authoritative, but here's an interesting article on the subject:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/11/25/obama-gun-control-democrats_n_1112979.html

I expect an increased polarization on Gun control, and demands for increased security for public schools, and a decreased level of compassion towards problems caused by mental illness.

and people will be amazed when they see worse problems crop up as a result of unintended consequences.