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Several times a month, I will be in a store aisle reaching for something and feel a hand going up the inside of my thigh. When I turn around to find myself alone with a woman, and ask her if she would prefer me to hold still so she can get a better feel for the situation, oftentimes she will act "shocked" claiming nothing had happened, it must be somebody else...

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On the role of experts in creating personal belief systems.

Started by Kai, December 17, 2012, 12:07:49 AM

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Anna Mae Bollocks

#15
December 17, 2012, 05:21:04 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 17, 2012, 04:35:04 PM
Quote from: Elder Iptuous on December 17, 2012, 04:14:56 PM
Roger, that seems well stated, and made me think. thanks.

do you have beliefs that are unverifiable because you believe that verifiable truth is only a subset of the total truth, and you wish to believe as much of the truth as you can, even at risk of believing some non-truth?

They are unverifiable because:

1.  If God is everywhere, you can't go to a no-God zone to calibrate your instruments.
2.  You cannot prove a negative.

Science and religion have no business mixing under ANY circumstances.  The classic mistakes made are:

1.  Religious people trying to prove God's existence.  If you prove his existence, then you have no faith (belief without proof), and you've slain your own beliefs, and possibly your God.  Way to go.

2.  It's bad science to state that God doesn't exist, because you can't observe either God or the lack of God.  The only truly scientific stand would be agnosticism.

Lastly, I have never made a conscious decision to believe.  It's just the way I am.  In addition, I am bothered by one thing, from a rationalist point of view.  Altruism is known to be a survival trait, thus no beliefs are necessary...BUT:  The human appreciation for art in all its forms doesn't have - to my knowledge - any survival value, so I am at present assuming that there's more to the story than just biology.

This is one of thse things I could walk around and mull over for months.  :eek:
Scantily-Clad Inspector of Gigantic and Unnecessary Cashews, Texas Division

The Good Reverend Roger

#16
December 17, 2012, 06:34:50 PM
Quote from: Elder Iptuous on December 17, 2012, 05:09:42 PM
as for the last point, are you saying that appreciation for art points to intent in form? 

Nope.  I'm saying there isn't any evidence that I have seen that shows art appreciation to have any survival value, for or against.  I can think of a couple of reasons that it MIGHT have helped (tribe cohesion, etc), but it's too widespread to be a random trait.

So for the moment, for the evidence on hand, it leaves the door open to intent in form.

And if you think about it, a God that instilled art and appreciation of art in humans is a God worth having around.
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

"Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

The Good Reverend Roger

#17
December 17, 2012, 06:37:01 PM
Quote from: TEXAS FAIRIES FOR ALL YOU SPAGS on December 17, 2012, 05:21:04 PM
This is one of thse things I could walk around and mull over for months.  :eek:

My father and I have been arguing about it for 20 years.  :lol:

He's an agnostic, I'm a believer.  We scrap like this all the time...But neither of us is a fanatic, so the discussions are interesting as hell.  Our friend (my dad's childhood friend) was some sort of Anglican muckety muck, a bishop or whatever, and he took part in the discussions until the day he died.  It was and remains a hoot.
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

"Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

The Good Reverend Roger

#18
December 17, 2012, 06:46:48 PM Last Edit: December 17, 2012, 06:51:24 PM by The Good Reverend Roger
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on December 17, 2012, 05:13:58 PM
Here's where the initial (OP) argument first breaks down for me: "For each, the entirety of knowledge, as I described it, was passed down from people... they considered experts."  Sure, as he described it.  But that description is highly removed from reality. 

The second break is, "Each can generate reasonably consistent descriptions of themselves, their world, and the universe."  Except they can't.  They can generate descriptions that other people may accept, but it's the same thing as Elizer's "Phlogiston" argument.

The third is, "Neither Mary nor Joe learned about their world through direct experience."  Again, this is fundamentally not true. 

Thing is, everyone has beliefs.  Everyone.  And when dealing with things that are unverifiable, there cannot be "experts" (sorry to preachers of all religions and Pagan Elders everywhere, but that's the way it is).  This is ESPECIALLY true when it comes to religion.

And anyone who CLAIMS to be an expert on unverifiable things is therefore a BULLSHIT ARTIST.  This is sometimes readily apparent (any history channel show on "ancient astronauts", for example), and sometimes not so apparent. 

The acid test is this:

1.  Are the claims verifiable given current technology?

2.  Does the person espousing the claims claim to be an authority on the matter?

If the first answer is no and the second answer is yes, then the person in question is a bullshitter, no matter what they're selling (including atheism).  Except genuine Holy Men™, who have a special dispensation on account of we STATE that we're bullshitting, but that bullshit is divinely inspired, so shut up.

If the first answer is yes and the second answer is yes, check the person's credentials.

If the first answer is no and the second answer is no, you're talking to someone in a bar.

If the first answer is yes and the second answer is no, congratulations, you're talking to the only honest man you know.

" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

"Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

LMNO

#19
December 17, 2012, 06:56:56 PM
I agree with you, but the article posted seems to say that even if it's "yes" and "yes", and the guy's credentials check out, we shouldn't trust their knowledge, because we haven't done the experiment ourselves.

The argument that's being made is that in both religion and science, you're only accepting on Faith alone; you don't have direct knowledge.  My point is that this is a false equivalence; the scientist has data, evidence, and predictive ability, while the guru does not.

Mesozoic Mister Nigel

#20
December 17, 2012, 07:02:14 PM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on December 17, 2012, 06:56:56 PM
I agree with you, but the article posted seems to say that even if it's "yes" and "yes", and the guy's credentials check out, we shouldn't trust their knowledge, because we haven't done the experiment ourselves.

The argument that's being made is that in both religion and science, you're only accepting on Faith alone; you don't have direct knowledge.  My point is that this is a false equivalence; the scientist has data, evidence, and predictive ability, while the guru does not.

I have to agree with this.
"I'm guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk," Charles Wick said. "It was very complicated."

The Good Reverend Roger

#21
December 17, 2012, 07:05:35 PM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on December 17, 2012, 06:56:56 PM
I agree with you, but the article posted seems to say that even if it's "yes" and "yes", and the guy's credentials check out, we shouldn't trust their knowledge, because we haven't done the experiment ourselves.

At that point, the whole machine breaks down.  This is what peer review is for.  Not everyone is capable of reproducing experiments in any given field.

QuoteThe argument that's being made is that in both religion and science, you're only accepting on Faith alone; you don't have direct knowledge.  My point is that this is a false equivalence; the scientist has data, evidence, and predictive ability, while the guru does not.

And the scientist CAN be checked out...Again, that's what peer review is for.  Faith cannot be verified, by it's very definition, ie, belief without proof.

I'd like to add that belief in the face of evidence that disproves your belief isn't faith.  It's stupidity.
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

"Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

Anna Mae Bollocks

#22
December 17, 2012, 07:11:46 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 17, 2012, 06:34:50 PM
Quote from: Elder Iptuous on December 17, 2012, 05:09:42 PM
as for the last point, are you saying that appreciation for art points to intent in form? 

Nope.  I'm saying there isn't any evidence that I have seen that shows art appreciation to have any survival value, for or against.  I can think of a couple of reasons that it MIGHT have helped (tribe cohesion, etc), but it's too widespread to be a random trait.

So for the moment, for the evidence on hand, it leaves the door open to intent in form.

And if you think about it, a God that instilled art and appreciation of art in humans is a God worth having around.

Whatever did that is worth having around.  :)

And whatever did that is beyond what I can wrap my head around...which is kind of my definition of "God". Not the Big Gipper In The Sky.

So yeah, I believe in *something*. It's just bigger and weirder than what usually gets called "God" and it doesn't give a shit about Amurka(TM) or who's banging what.
Scantily-Clad Inspector of Gigantic and Unnecessary Cashews, Texas Division

The Good Reverend Roger

#23
December 17, 2012, 07:15:12 PM
Quote from: TEXAS FAIRIES FOR ALL YOU SPAGS on December 17, 2012, 07:11:46 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 17, 2012, 06:34:50 PM
Quote from: Elder Iptuous on December 17, 2012, 05:09:42 PM
as for the last point, are you saying that appreciation for art points to intent in form? 

Nope.  I'm saying there isn't any evidence that I have seen that shows art appreciation to have any survival value, for or against.  I can think of a couple of reasons that it MIGHT have helped (tribe cohesion, etc), but it's too widespread to be a random trait.

So for the moment, for the evidence on hand, it leaves the door open to intent in form.

And if you think about it, a God that instilled art and appreciation of art in humans is a God worth having around.

Whatever did that is worth having around.  :)

And whatever did that is beyond what I can wrap my head around...which is kind of my definition of "God". Not the Big Gipper In The Sky.

So yeah, I believe in *something*. It's just bigger and weirder than what usually gets called "God" and it doesn't give a shit about Amurka(TM) or who's banging what.

Precisely.  You sound like a perfect candidate for membership in Bubba's First Self-Righteous Church of the Wrath of Baby Jesus and Ribshack™.  We need some new choir members...We lost Iptuous & family to Hansen.  It's like losing PD members to Facebook, only it hits us in the collection plate, something of which we definitely disapprove.
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

"Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

Anna Mae Bollocks

#24
December 17, 2012, 07:18:50 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 17, 2012, 07:15:12 PM
Quote from: TEXAS FAIRIES FOR ALL YOU SPAGS on December 17, 2012, 07:11:46 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 17, 2012, 06:34:50 PM
Quote from: Elder Iptuous on December 17, 2012, 05:09:42 PM
as for the last point, are you saying that appreciation for art points to intent in form? 

Nope.  I'm saying there isn't any evidence that I have seen that shows art appreciation to have any survival value, for or against.  I can think of a couple of reasons that it MIGHT have helped (tribe cohesion, etc), but it's too widespread to be a random trait.

So for the moment, for the evidence on hand, it leaves the door open to intent in form.

And if you think about it, a God that instilled art and appreciation of art in humans is a God worth having around.

Whatever did that is worth having around.  :)

And whatever did that is beyond what I can wrap my head around...which is kind of my definition of "God". Not the Big Gipper In The Sky.

So yeah, I believe in *something*. It's just bigger and weirder than what usually gets called "God" and it doesn't give a shit about Amurka(TM) or who's banging what.

Precisely.  You sound like a perfect candidate for membership in Bubba's First Self-Righteous Church of the Wrath of Baby Jesus and Ribshack™.  We need some new choir members...We lost Iptuous & family to Hansen.  It's like losing PD members to Facebook, only it hits us in the collection plate, something of which we definitely disapprove.

Count me in. HANSEN IS NOT GETTING MY SOUL, DAMMIT
Scantily-Clad Inspector of Gigantic and Unnecessary Cashews, Texas Division

Elder Iptuous

#25
December 17, 2012, 07:36:08 PM
hey now!
i happen to have a syncretic pantheistic belief structure in which hansen is only one sainted entity.

The Good Reverend Roger

#26
December 17, 2012, 07:52:16 PM
Quote from: Elder Iptuous on December 17, 2012, 07:36:08 PM
hey now!
i happen to have a syncretic pantheistic belief structure in which hansen is only one sainted entity.

I shudder to think WHAT the other ones are, given that.

Spiro Agnew?  Roy Cohn?  James Hetfield?
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

"Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

Elder Iptuous

#27
December 17, 2012, 08:04:22 PM
it's is perhaps far too hippy and trippy for your sensibilities.  they're all saints. (pantheistic and all)  just some of them i get to arbitrarily put an 'especially' tag on.
like Leon Redbone.

i had to look up Hetfield.  he doesn't get an 'especially'.

The Good Reverend Roger

#28
December 17, 2012, 08:17:49 PM
Quote from: Elder Iptuous on December 17, 2012, 08:04:22 PM
Leon Redbone.

Okay, I guess I'll let you live.
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

"Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.
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