News:

PD.com: You wont believe our bullshit

Main Menu

The Compiled Rugged Individualist Conversation

Started by The Good Reverend Roger, December 19, 2012, 02:23:38 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

The Good Reverend Roger

As reposted to Scrubgenius:

Nigel:  Since when is marketing a conspiracy theory?

Roger:  Since it started working.  Ever since the 8 circuit model was adopted, in other words.  They figured out that ads with women draped over cars sold magazines with the ads, not the cars themselves.  So they went with the 8 circuit model, discredited Leary (with his assistance), and then put the shit to work.  That's why the 8 circuit model is found in marketing and political science classes, but not psychology classes.

You can't swing a dead cat without hitting an example of the model in use.  Every commercial on TV, for example.

So it's a CT.  It's just a CT that happens to be TRUE.

An interesting dichotomy exists between television shows and television commercials.

The commercials use the 8 circuit model to emphasize a myth of individuality (some of which are done in a diabolically clever way, like the "Bluebell Ice Cream" commericials), while the shows emphatically state that it's okay for an individualist to conform to the group or submit to authority by his or her own choice (that choice, of course, being an illusion).  Specific examples would be "24", where we "choose to allow" people like Jack Bauer to torture people for the common good, because he's an even more "rugged individualist" than we are, and can therefore be trusted to act in our stead.

An interesting dichotomy exists between television shows and television commercials.

The commercials use the 8 circuit model to emphasize a myth of individuality (some of which are done in a diabolically clever way, like the "Bluebell Ice Cream" commericials), while the shows emphatically state that it's okay for an individualist to conform to the group or submit to authority by his or her own choice (that choice, of course, being an illusion).  Specific examples would be "24", where we "choose to allow" people like Jack Bauer to torture people for the common good, because he's an even more "rugged individualist" than we are, and can therefore be trusted to act in our stead.

Nigel: Yeah, it's pretty interesting how so many TV shows right now center around an agency that's bigger than the government, or an individual (or individuals) who operate outside of the law, essentially taking care of things for the rest of us.

It's an odd dichotomy, reinforcing the idea of "rugged individualism GOOD!" while also providing the comforting notion that we're all being taken care of.

Roger:  It's also funny how people can't or won't look at the situation, because it hits them square in the 2nd circuit.  You can explain until you're blue in the face, and they CAN'T LOOK AT IT.

Conditioning is a terrible thing.

Nigel:  Yeah, it's true. Trust me, I've tried to have this conversation before, about how the "rugged individualism" that Americans pride ourselves on so much is actually toxic and anti-community, as well as paradoxically anti-survival. Which is part of why I'm so interested in its origins.

People really can't wrap their heads around it, and avoid the shit out of it. Especially enlightened liberals, who feel special and hate the masses etc etc. They've bought into it completely, and it's too uncomfortable for them to examine the possibility that the only way to build a healthy society is to actually FUCKING BE A SOCIETY.

Roger:  Yep.  It particularly doesn't fly in "rugged individualist" states, like Alaska (Alty seems to be an exception).  Or Texas, for that matter.  But you are correct.  While certain regions may have it worse than others, ALL OF THEM HAVE IT.  And I could see how the left fringe would really, really fall for it, just as much as the teabaggers..."The sheeple don't understand."

Nigel:  Exactly... and as the Common Walls project existed to try to expound upon, a divided population is an easy population to control and manipulate. The "Rugged Individualism" meme is inherently divisive.

Roger:  DING!  Post of the fucking year.  That's a connection I hadn't made.  We can do something with this.

LMNO:  I was just about to say something similar.  Also, it's funny there's a dichotomy between the pro-healthcare stance around here, the pro-takes-a-villiage mentality expressed, even a pro-Project-Mayhem-no-precious-snowflake-or-unicorn memeswamp... and the now-rearing "individuality" idea.

Paes:  GET OUT OF MY SELF-CONSISTENT WORLDVIEW, YOU MANIAC.

Roger:  What's especially funny is that when I made a series of posts undermining my own earlier arguments, people COULD NOT SEE THE POSTS.  Too much ouch on the old 2d circuit.

Nigel:  Ideas that are really uncomfortable often become invisible.

LMNO:  This is a beautiful layman rephrasing of "cognitive dissonance".

Paes:  I REJECT THE IDEA THAT I AM REJECTING IDEAS AUTOMATICALLY.

Roger:  I am in serious danger of having an idea, here.  Funny thing with the original topic...The 2nd amendment spells out the right of individuals to bear arms, with the justfication in the explanitory clause being that they can therefore operate in a GROUP known as a "militia".  There's something down this fucking rabbit hole.  I just have to keep digging.

See, here's the thing.  We're primates.  The only "individuals" in the primate world are those driven out of the pack.  Now, I'm NOT saying that people shouldn't think for themselves, or that we should all engage in 100% pack mentality, but I AM saying that the DEFAULT position is pack thinking.  And I think I'm also saying that being driven out of the pack CAN be a GOOD thing, under certain circumstances...But that being said, you are most often going to have one unhappy, dysfunctional primate.

And maybe a small percentage of those unhappy, dysfunctional primates do things like go on shooting sprees.

Paes:  MUST RECONCILE NEED TO BE NOT THEM WITH NEED TO BE PART OF THEM

Roger:  And that's the fucking beauty of it.  It's a false dichotomy.  You can be BOTH part of the pack and an individual.  In fact, you kind of HAVE to be both.  In other words, the question isn't "how can I be an individual and not part of the pack", but "How can I be an individual while remaining part of the pack."  And THAT is the disconnect.  Right wingers want to be lone wolves, and left wingers want to collectivize.  Both answers, by themselves, are wrong.  Instead, the goal should be to create a society in which the rights of the individual are best served by cooperation within the group.  A bunch of guys in wigs proposed something similar (though less inclusive) a couple of hundred years ago, but nobody took them seriously.

Nigel:  I am a rock may as well be our national anthem.  Which is interesting, simply because isolation is the single most psychologically damaging environmental factor for the human psyche; worse than physical and sexual abuse. Well, saying that it's worse than stress is incorrect: Other than catastrophic trauma, isolation is the single greatest psychological stressor known to our species.

Roger:  And we have reached the bottom of the rabbit hole, folks.

We have been sold - indeed, sold ourselves - on the idea of harming ourselves in the worst possible manner, for our own "good".

Always
Be
Closing

Nigel:  BAM.

Roger:  Yep.  I think we've found one of the main motive forces of The Conspiracy, AND what separates The Conspiracy from a healthy society.  Shit, now it looks OBVIOUS.  And it's gonna piss some of the free market tards here off pretty bad.

Nigel:  The problem is that telling Americans that Rugged Individualism™ isn't actually good for them and that it leads to isolation, disconnection, and a host of psychological problems including depression and antisocial behavior is a lot like telling the British that the sky is made of dancing clown ponies or telling Australians that peanut butter is food. They just ignore you because to them, what you're saying is completely ridiculous and not to be dignified by giving it a second thought.

Roger:  Still gonna piss the free market tards off, and that alone is worth the time this took.

Nigel:  I think you have missed the entire fucking point, here.

Roger:  Can't help it.  I'm a DUMBASS.
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

"Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

Anna Mae Bollocks

Some excellent points...though pissing off free market tards is IRRESISTABLE.

Another Rugged Individualist meme: Longarm from those little books that are the only thing Bubbas read...
Scantily-Clad Inspector of Gigantic and Unnecessary Cashews, Texas Division

The Good Reverend Roger

Quote from: TEXAS FAIRIES FOR ALL YOU SPAGS on December 19, 2012, 06:40:42 PM
Some excellent points...though pissing off free market tards is IRRESISTABLE.

Another Rugged Individualist meme: Longarm from those little books that are the only thing Bubbas read...

:?
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

"Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

Anna Mae Bollocks

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 19, 2012, 06:45:12 PM
Quote from: TEXAS FAIRIES FOR ALL YOU SPAGS on December 19, 2012, 06:40:42 PM
Some excellent points...though pissing off free market tards is IRRESISTABLE.

Another Rugged Individualist meme: Longarm from those little books that are the only thing Bubbas read...

:?

It's a series of skinny little books. Kind of a Harlequin Romance series for men.

It's essentially the same shit over and over. The bad guy is running rampant and they can't catch him by legal means, so they have to hire Longarm. He tracks the guy, gets laid on the way and then catches him.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Longarm_(book_series)
Scantily-Clad Inspector of Gigantic and Unnecessary Cashews, Texas Division

Mesozoic Mister Nigel

The American Individualism meme is a bill of goods, and the American people bought it.
"I'm guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk," Charles Wick said. "It was very complicated."


President Television

This reminds me a lot of an idea I saw in an Alan Watts piece a while back: The idea that we are Different, but not Separate. I'm still not entirely sure how much stock I want to put into his ideas, but this seems to me like the best possible way of phrasing the distinction between Rugged Individualism™ and Social Individualism.

And reading this was a necessary slap in the face for me, I think. Despite my Canadian-ness, I'm one of those people who spends his life as a brooding, bitter misanthrope and then wonders why he doesn't have any friends and everyone at work thinks he's a freak.
My shit list: Stephen Harper, anarchists that complain about taxes instead of institutionalized torture, those people walking, anyone who lets a single aspect of themselves define their entire personality, salesmen that don't smoke pipes, Fredericton New Brunswick, bigots, philosophy majors, my nemesis, pirates that don't do anything, criminals without class, sociopaths, narcissists, furries, juggalos, foes.

Mesozoic Mister Nigel

#6
I've become fascinated with Asch's conformity experiments and the interesting results that people in Japan and Britain, countries which are (for good reason) widely thought of as more communally-oriented, scored significantly lower for conformity than Americans on those experiments. It creates a sort of "Individualism Paradox" in which those who consider themselves most fiercely individualistic, when put to the test, are actually more conforming, possibly because of a sense of insecurity resulting from their disconnection from community.

The dangers of conformity became a media talking point in the 1950's, and people were encouraged to express their individuality. So far I haven't found this "American Individualism and the Dangers of Conformity" meme earlier than that, but I haven't had time to do very much research. The rise of Nazi Germany was widely blamed on conformity.

At the end of the war, the economy was facing some problems and the US needed consumers, badly. I am starting to suspect that the post-war emergence of self expression and free love was in part engineered by corporations who were seeking to create the largest group of materialists ever to exist on the planet, and met with great success... the Baby Boomers.

In other words, I think that hippies were the unintended consequence of a marketing campaign.  :lol:
"I'm guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk," Charles Wick said. "It was very complicated."


The Good Reverend Roger

Quote from: hølist on December 20, 2012, 05:19:14 PM
I've become fascinated with Asch's conformity experiments and the interesting results that people in Japan and Britain, countries which are (for good reason) widely thought of as more communally-oriented, scored significantly lower for conformity than Americans on those experiments. It creates a sort of "Individualism Paradox" in which those who consider themselves most fiercely individualistic, when put to the test, are actually more conforming, possibly because of a sense of insecurity resulting from their disconnection from community.

The dangers of conformity became a media talking point in the 1950's, and people were encouraged to express their individuality. So far I haven't found this "American Individualism and the Dangers of Conformity" meme earlier than that, but I haven't had time to do very much research. The rise of Nazi Germany was widely blamed on conformity.

At the end of the war, the economy was facing some problems and the US needed consumers, badly. I am starting to suspect that the post-war emergence of self expression and free love was in part engineered by corporations who were seeking to create the largest group of materialists ever to exist on the planet, and met with great success... the Baby Boomers.

In other words, I think that hippies were the unintended consequence of a marketing campaign.  :lol:

That makes a disturbing amount of sense.
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

"Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

Mesozoic Mister Nigel

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 20, 2012, 05:24:17 PM
Quote from: hølist on December 20, 2012, 05:19:14 PM
I've become fascinated with Asch's conformity experiments and the interesting results that people in Japan and Britain, countries which are (for good reason) widely thought of as more communally-oriented, scored significantly lower for conformity than Americans on those experiments. It creates a sort of "Individualism Paradox" in which those who consider themselves most fiercely individualistic, when put to the test, are actually more conforming, possibly because of a sense of insecurity resulting from their disconnection from community.

The dangers of conformity became a media talking point in the 1950's, and people were encouraged to express their individuality. So far I haven't found this "American Individualism and the Dangers of Conformity" meme earlier than that, but I haven't had time to do very much research. The rise of Nazi Germany was widely blamed on conformity.

At the end of the war, the economy was facing some problems and the US needed consumers, badly. I am starting to suspect that the post-war emergence of self expression and free love was in part engineered by corporations who were seeking to create the largest group of materialists ever to exist on the planet, and met with great success... the Baby Boomers.

In other words, I think that hippies were the unintended consequence of a marketing campaign.  :lol:

That makes a disturbing amount of sense.

Yeah, as soon as it started to click into place I got that creepy "OHSHI-" feeling.
"I'm guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk," Charles Wick said. "It was very complicated."


The Good Reverend Roger

Quote from: hølist on December 20, 2012, 05:38:13 PM
Yeah, as soon as it started to click into place I got that creepy "OHSHI-" feeling.

The really FUNNY part is, that's before ads were actually researched and designed properly.

Now they can create a "generation identity" inside of 8 weeks...the longest time it takes for a meme to propagate nation-wide, which is ALSO artificial.  Memes work better when they're "aged", ie, when a COOL SUBCULTURE uses them for a while first.  This explains the career of Justin Beiber, among other evils.

And you can tell when a meme has reached its saturation point (when it stops being effective).  You can buy a Justin Beiber electric toothbrush now - I shit you not - which means his target audience is now 9 years old.  He's done.

And then the next one will show up.  He or she will be hyped to a fever pitch 48 hours before his or her first single hits the market, as "aging" can be fabricated in the case of entertainment.  "Everyone loves <insert name>, watch for his new single on <insert date>!"  The fact that it's his or her FIRST single, and that nobody's ever heard of him or her will be lost in the hype.

The marketing technique for branding a generation works the same way.  A subculture is picked on the criteria of how vanilla it is (hipsters, etc) - which is to say, how easy it is to emulate - and that is constantly represented as the "cool" segment of the population.  What these people like or want is catalogued so everyone will know what to buy and when.

When that generation is too old to have disposable income (when they have kids), the next generation is branded and moved into the public eye.

We've come a long way from hippies, Nigel.  That shit took 15 years.
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

"Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

Mesozoic Mister Nigel

The Boomers are still driving our economy. One of the reasons there's so much of a future in the heathcare industry right now is because boomers are getting old.

And who do you think buys those Justin Bieber toothbrushes for their grandkids?

The thing is, the whole scheme worked out beautifully.
"I'm guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk," Charles Wick said. "It was very complicated."


Mesozoic Mister Nigel

And we're still buying it, en masse, as a nation... Individuality! Self-reliance! Every man for himself!

We've bought a history of American individual self-reliance that never existed and turned it into a religion that's tearing apart the unions and keeping us from things like decent jobs, equitable pay, and healthcare, all while being more conformist than we ever were before we started being ruggedly individualistic, dying our hair purple, and piercing our faces.

Holy shit, good job, America!
"I'm guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk," Charles Wick said. "It was very complicated."


The Good Reverend Roger

Quote from: hølist on December 20, 2012, 06:02:49 PM
And we're still buying it, en masse, as a nation... Individuality! Self-reliance! Every man for himself!

We've bought a history of American individual self-reliance that never existed and turned it into a religion that's tearing apart the unions and keeping us from things like decent jobs, equitable pay, and healthcare, all while being more conformist than we ever were before we started being ruggedly individualistic, dying our hair purple, and piercing our faces.

Holy shit, good job, America!

We're fucking GENIUSES at that shit.  And when I say "we", I mean each of us, individually.  Together.  But not in a collectivist sense, because that's for poor countries, like Canada and Europe.
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

"Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

Mesozoic Mister Nigel

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 20, 2012, 06:04:44 PM
Quote from: hølist on December 20, 2012, 06:02:49 PM
And we're still buying it, en masse, as a nation... Individuality! Self-reliance! Every man for himself!

We've bought a history of American individual self-reliance that never existed and turned it into a religion that's tearing apart the unions and keeping us from things like decent jobs, equitable pay, and healthcare, all while being more conformist than we ever were before we started being ruggedly individualistic, dying our hair purple, and piercing our faces.

Holy shit, good job, America!

We're fucking GENIUSES at that shit.  And when I say "we", I mean each of us, individually.  Together.  But not in a collectivist sense, because that's for poor countries, like Canada and Europe.

:lol:
"I'm guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk," Charles Wick said. "It was very complicated."


Cainad (dec.)

I need to get my brain out of this travel-funk. Clearly this is one of the more important things that the PD Discordian Hive Mind has come up with recently, but I can't bring my thoughts into focus enough to create essays, pamphlets, or posters.

But I do think this needs to eventually crystallize into a GASM of some kind.