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On suffering fools gladly

Started by Mesozoic Mister Nigel, January 04, 2013, 04:12:02 PM

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Mesozoic Mister Nigel

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/04/opinion/brooks-suffering-fools-gladly.html?smid=fb-share&_r=0

QuoteThe phrase originally came from William Tyndale's 1534 translation of the Bible. In it, Paul was ripping into the decadent citizens of Corinth for turning away from his own authoritative teaching and falling for a bunch of second-rate false apostles. "For ye suffers fool gladly," Paul says with withering sarcasm, "seeing ye yourselves are wise."

Today, the phrase is often used as an ambiguous compliment. It suggests that a person is so smart he has trouble tolerating people who are far below his own high standards. It is used to describe a person who is so passionately committed to a vital cause that he doesn't have time for social niceties toward those idiots who stand in its way. It is used to suggest a level of social courage; a person who has the guts to tell idiots what he really thinks.

Sure, it would be better if such people were nicer to those around them, the phrase implies, but this is a forgivable sin in one so talented. The actor Ed Harris's "penetrating gaze signals that this is a serious, somber man on a singular quest," a writer observed in The Toronto Sun. "He doesn't suffer fools gladly, if at all."


This article came along at the perfect time for me, because just last night I was thinking about how burnt out I am on the cynical superiority complex and smug faux-misanthropy that I seem to see everywhere, particularly among my intellectual/age peer group. Among cafe, bar, and internet hipsters who clutch their cloak of disdain for humanity closely around them to conceal their own insecurities and flaws... they hope.

I realized that I'm sick of it. I'm done with it. I'm out of patience for humoring it, let alone participating in it. I'm glad this article articulated so well what I was just beginning to think about... it's just another form of petty cruelty. It doesn't make us better people to look down on others, it just makes us brats.
"I'm guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk," Charles Wick said. "It was very complicated."


The Good Reverend Roger

Quote from: M. Nigel Salt on January 04, 2013, 04:12:02 PM

This article came along at the perfect time for me, because just last night I was thinking about how burnt out I am on the cynical superiority complex and smug faux-misanthropy that I seem to see everywhere, particularly among my intellectual/age peer group. Among cafe, bar, and internet hipsters who clutch their cloak of disdain for humanity closely around them to conceal their own insecurities and flaws... they hope.

I realized that I'm sick of it. I'm done with it. I'm out of patience for humoring it, let alone participating in it. I'm glad this article articulated so well what I was just beginning to think about... it's just another form of petty cruelty. It doesn't make us better people to look down on others, it just makes us brats.

I make a distinction...On one hand, I assume that most people that I deal with are in error (they believe things that aren't so)...Which doesn't make them fools, it makes them wrong, while on the other hand, I view large groups of primates as fools.  What's that line from Men in Black?  "A person can be smart; people are stupid."

On the gripping hand, I also have a large amount of hope for humans.  Despite their pettiness and mean-spirited meddling, they also do AMAZING things sometimes.

I think the best way to say this is that I love people, but am driven batshit by humanity.

Another way to say it is that a lot of human stupidity is forgiveable.  They get tired.  They get afraid.  They get desperate.  Or hell, maybe they just get bored.  On top of all that, they have been denied a proper education by some very smart (and evil) people, and thus lack the critical thinking skills used to determine whether or not things are good for them, or bad for them.  I'm thinking the "Fair Tax", right now.

" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

"Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

The Good Reverend Roger

#2
Oh, yeah, and one other thing:  The most annoying part of hearing someone say "People are all stupid" with a straight face is that they always seem to not be including themselves.

Edit to add:  Also, calling people in a REGION "stupid" is incorrect.  Seguin, Texas, for example, is STUFFED FULL OF ACTUAL STUPID PEOPLE.  However, Stella also happens to live there, and SHE'S  not stupid.

" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

"Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

LMNO

But isn't "people in Seguin are stupid" simply a conversationally useful way to say "the majority of people in Seguin are stupid"?

Wasn't the whole "anti-e-prime" fiasco a few years ago exactly about just this?

The Good Reverend Roger

Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on January 04, 2013, 04:59:28 PM
But isn't "people in Seguin are stupid" simply a conversationally useful way to say "the majority of people in Seguin are stupid"?

Wasn't the whole "anti-e-prime" fiasco a few years ago exactly about just this?

Yeah, but you CAN swing too far the other way, and speak in nothing BUT generalizations, I think.  Also, you may have noticed that my 5 part stories have become a little upbeat.  That's not because you have a kinder, gentler TGRR (perish the notion), but because I've been trying to see the world the way it really is...And bitter, endless disdain and pessimism is just as inaccurate as e-prime and The Secret.

Saying "some dumbfuck from Seguin" would be okay, because there's no denying that there are dumbfucks in the world, and there's CERTAINLY no denying that there are no dumbfucks in Seguin...But saying "some guy from Seguin" as a means of implying that he's stupid isn't as okay.

This isn't to say that I won't rant about stupid people.  I just plan to aim better, so I don't shoot my OWN toe off.
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

"Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

The Good Reverend Roger

Last thought:  Some people ARE stupid, and DO fail to live up to my standards.  This is usually in an industrial setting, where stupidity and lack of a set standard (no matter how arbitrary) will get someone killed.
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

"Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

Mesozoic Mister Nigel

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on January 04, 2013, 04:47:09 PM
Quote from: M. Nigel Salt on January 04, 2013, 04:12:02 PM

This article came along at the perfect time for me, because just last night I was thinking about how burnt out I am on the cynical superiority complex and smug faux-misanthropy that I seem to see everywhere, particularly among my intellectual/age peer group. Among cafe, bar, and internet hipsters who clutch their cloak of disdain for humanity closely around them to conceal their own insecurities and flaws... they hope.

I realized that I'm sick of it. I'm done with it. I'm out of patience for humoring it, let alone participating in it. I'm glad this article articulated so well what I was just beginning to think about... it's just another form of petty cruelty. It doesn't make us better people to look down on others, it just makes us brats.

I make a distinction...On one hand, I assume that most people that I deal with are in error (they believe things that aren't so)...Which doesn't make them fools, it makes them wrong, while on the other hand, I view large groups of primates as fools.  What's that line from Men in Black?  "A person can be smart; people are stupid."

On the gripping hand, I also have a large amount of hope for humans.  Despite their pettiness and mean-spirited meddling, they also do AMAZING things sometimes.

I think the best way to say this is that I love people, but am driven batshit by humanity.

Another way to say it is that a lot of human stupidity is forgiveable.  They get tired.  They get afraid.  They get desperate.  Or hell, maybe they just get bored.  On top of all that, they have been denied a proper education by some very smart (and evil) people, and thus lack the critical thinking skills used to determine whether or not things are good for them, or bad for them.  I'm thinking the "Fair Tax", right now.

Yes, all of this. Especially the fact that people in unfair circumstances are the people denied the resources to be "smart".
"I'm guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk," Charles Wick said. "It was very complicated."


The Good Reverend Roger

Quote from: M. Nigel Salt on January 04, 2013, 05:19:13 PM
Yes, all of this. Especially the fact that people in unfair circumstances are the people denied the resources to be "smart".

Yep.  Because even though intelligence and education are two separate things, they definitely influence each other.

Examples:

Guy A has tools, but no experience in using them.  He's stupid with respect to machinery, but maybe smart in other areas.

Guy B is a total moron with a degree from Harvard.  Unless he is elected president, he is stupid.

Guy C is a very smart but very poor kid from a shitty school district.  In many ways, he will act stupid.  In other ways, he will run circles around you.

Guy D is a smart guy with a narrow education.  He may be brilliant at circuit board design, but when the conversation goes to politics, he puts on his stupid mask and starts talking about how amazing Sarah Palin is.
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

"Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

Mesozoic Mister Nigel

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on January 04, 2013, 04:51:06 PM
Oh, yeah, and one other thing:  The most annoying part of hearing someone say "People are all stupid" with a straight face is that they always seem to not be including themselves.

Edit to add:  Also, calling people in a REGION "stupid" is incorrect.  Seguin, Texas, for example, is STUFFED FULL OF ACTUAL STUPID PEOPLE.  However, Stella also happens to live there, and SHE'S  not stupid.

Yes; if people are stupid, than I'm stupid and you're stupid. We're all a bunch of dumbfucks, actually, who make mistakes left and right... foreseeable  mistakes, from those with the perspective to be able to see where they'll go wrong. We are all WILLFULLY blinded by wishful thinking and short term gain.

Take the Smartest Guy in the Room. Have you seen the movie by the same name, about the Enron execs? They KNEW they were smarter than everybody, and they laughed about how stupid everyone else was while planning rolling blackouts through California. How stupid is it to endanger your own people in order to make some extra money? But they employed the illusion of their own superiority, and therefore the inflated notion of their human worth, to justify hurting millions of people in order to benefit themselves. And then they ended up in prison.

"Those people are stupid" is quite possibly the heart of evil, because it justifies either doing terrible things to other people or letting terrible things happen to other people. 
"I'm guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk," Charles Wick said. "It was very complicated."


Mesozoic Mister Nigel

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on January 04, 2013, 05:24:57 PM
Quote from: M. Nigel Salt on January 04, 2013, 05:19:13 PM
Yes, all of this. Especially the fact that people in unfair circumstances are the people denied the resources to be "smart".

Yep.  Because even though intelligence and education are two separate things, they definitely influence each other.

Examples:

Guy A has tools, but no experience in using them.  He's stupid with respect to machinery, but maybe smart in other areas.

Guy B is a total moron with a degree from Harvard.  Unless he is elected president, he is stupid.

Guy C is a very smart but very poor kid from a shitty school district.  In many ways, he will act stupid.  In other ways, he will run circles around you.

Guy D is a smart guy with a narrow education.  He may be brilliant at circuit board design, but when the conversation goes to politics, he puts on his stupid mask and starts talking about how amazing Sarah Palin is.

Yes... we've come to equate "disadvantaged", "ignorant", and "uninformed" with "stupid". To make matters worse, we seem to have defined "stupid" as "undeserving of good things". People who are "stupid" are bad people. They deserve what's coming to them.
"I'm guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk," Charles Wick said. "It was very complicated."


The Good Reverend Roger

We should probably define a few terms here:

Uneducated - While a person may be smart or stupid, they lack the tools to put what brainpower they have to use, or to optimum use.
Stupid -  The condition of ignoring skills learned when attempting a task or conversation.
Willfully ignorant -  The condition of NOT WANTING the tools to use your intelligence, because you've put on a uniform that disagrees with those tools for one reason or another.
Smart -  The condition of having the brains, education, and emotional stability required to make good decisions.
Fool. -  One who blindly follows the reasoning of another, because thinking for themselves is either too much bother, or they need to follow the pack.
Brain damaged -  Physical damage to the brain that prevents one from learning or making good decisions.
Emotionally impaired - The condition of having emotions overriding thought.
Dunning/Kruger - I am a genius in all things, surrounded by retards.  I know more about your specialty than you do, even though I have no training in the field.

Anyone want to change or add to this?
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

"Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

The Good Reverend Roger

Quote from: M. Nigel Salt on January 04, 2013, 05:30:58 PM
Yes... we've come to equate "disadvantaged", "ignorant", and "uninformed" with "stupid". To make matters worse, we seem to have defined "stupid" as "undeserving of good things". People who are "stupid" are bad people. They deserve what's coming to them.

Heh...There's a split in the Church of the Subgenius over that.  The Ivangelicals believe that stupid people should be ignored when possible, and the holocaustals believe they should be wiped out, even if it decimates the church itself.
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

"Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

Mesozoic Mister Nigel

I work with some stupid kids, man. In the sense that these kids are fucked over by the world from day one, before they're even born. It's easy to see where a lot of these guys are headed, and it isn't anywhere good. They are going to do some stupid things, and end up in stupid places. I probably wouldn't like the adults many of them are going to become. But only a monster would feel disdain for these kids. Only a monster would fail to feel compassion.
"I'm guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk," Charles Wick said. "It was very complicated."


Mesozoic Mister Nigel

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on January 04, 2013, 05:36:44 PM
We should probably define a few terms here:

Uneducated - While a person may be smart or stupid, they lack the tools to put what brainpower they have to use, or to optimum use.
Stupid -  The condition of ignoring skills learned when attempting a task or conversation.
Willfully ignorant -  The condition of NOT WANTING the tools to use your intelligence, because you've put on a uniform that disagrees with those tools for one reason or another.
Smart -  The condition of having the brains, education, and emotional stability required to make good decisions.
Fool. -  One who blindly follows the reasoning of another, because thinking for themselves is either too much bother, or they need to follow the pack.
Brain damaged -  Physical damage to the brain that prevents one from learning or making good decisions.
Emotionally impaired - The condition of having emotions overriding thought.
Dunning/Kruger - I am a genius in all things, surrounded by retards.  I know more about your specialty than you do, even though I have no training in the field.

Anyone want to change or add to this?


The only thing I would add is that we all fall prey to all of those conditions, from time to time, with the possible exception of brain damage.

I don't think your definition of "stupid" really matches up with the most commonly used definition of "stupid"; I personally prefer to use dictionary definitions wherever possible.

I think that the problem with focusing on definitions is that it sidesteps the point of my OP, which is not about how to define those we look down on or feel contempt for, but the act of looking down on and feeling contempt for them in the first place.
"I'm guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk," Charles Wick said. "It was very complicated."


Mesozoic Mister Nigel

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on January 04, 2013, 05:39:15 PM
Quote from: M. Nigel Salt on January 04, 2013, 05:30:58 PM
Yes... we've come to equate "disadvantaged", "ignorant", and "uninformed" with "stupid". To make matters worse, we seem to have defined "stupid" as "undeserving of good things". People who are "stupid" are bad people. They deserve what's coming to them.

Heh...There's a split in the Church of the Subgenius over that.  The Ivangelicals believe that stupid people should be ignored when possible, and the holocaustals believe they should be wiped out, even if it decimates the church itself.

:lulz: It would wipe out humanity itself. So maybe the holocaustals have a point.
"I'm guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk," Charles Wick said. "It was very complicated."