Pillars of Our Society

[Cain]

Interesting, bringing up the cult business.

I was reading some historical sociology research, as I am wont to do, and it seems to be the accepted consensus now that the start of civilization as we understand it - the Mesopotamian city-states, China etc were essentially religious communities.

Of course, there are the usual arguments over whether the priesthood should even be referred to as that, and not as a mostly secular bureaucracy, how unified the cultures of the time actually were (answer: probably not very) and the levels of coercion within those societies.

It is interesting that the conclusion seems to be they were not overtly controlling in the sense that we understand cults to be nowadays, but over time, being emeshed in the system of trade/regulation/political authority that the temples provided made it much harder to leave than it had in gatherer-hunter times.

Religion is the first large scale form of ideology and power, and possibly the most insidious.  Nationalism is a form of religion...in fact, it's a direct result of religion, as the Peace of Westphalia (signed to stop the Thirty Years War) set down the conditions for the modern nation-state, and nationalism came to replace religion, with the elect being of a certain birthplace and custom, rather than religious sect.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Yep, that's part of it.

Twitter and Facebook aren't social networking software, they're social engineering software.

And everyone - including us - just lines right up for it.

I suppose on the bright side though, it has the potential to be used as a point in the gears where you can throw a wrench. Not really a good analogy I suppose, but if it's social engineering, it could allow the user to be an engineer. It's hard to cut through all the noise though.

We (Stella & Nigel & myself) have been making a real effort...But the cloud of DERP is too strong.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Interesting, bringing up the cult business.

I was reading some historical sociology research, as I am wont to do, and it seems to be the accepted consensus now that the start of civilization as we understand it - the Mesopotamian city-states, China etc were essentially religious communities.

Of course, there are the usual arguments over whether the priesthood should even be referred to as that, and not as a mostly secular bureaucracy, how unified the cultures of the time actually were (answer: probably not very) and the levels of coercion within those societies.

It is interesting that the conclusion seems to be they were not overtly controlling in the sense that we understand cults to be nowadays, but over time, being emeshed in the system of trade/regulation/political authority that the temples provided made it much harder to leave than it had in gatherer-hunter times.

Religion is the first large scale form of ideology and power, and possibly the most insidious.  Nationalism is a form of religion...in fact, it's a direct result of religion, as the Peace of Westphalia (signed to stop the Thirty Years War) set down the conditions for the modern nation-state, and nationalism came to replace religion, with the elect being of a certain birthplace and custom, rather than religious sect.

No argument, especially the last paragraph.  But America is raising the bar on this sort of thing, mostly based on accumulated knowledge of psychology.  I don't know for sure, but it sure as hell looks like England is doing the same thing.  Or it's just got America all over its clothes.  Result is the same.

[Cain]

Well, we have spent the last 100 years working on methods of propaganda and advertising (same thing).  The science is crude, deterministic and ugly, but it works.  For a given value of work, of course.

We first of all used these things for war.  The rampaging Hun and all that.  Then we used it to sell stuff.  Then the Germans decided to improve on the concept, and built the total propaganda society, "weltanschauungskrieg", world-view warfare.  We used the more neutral term of "psychological operations", but it meant the same.  Disrupt the enemy worldview, bring them around to your way of thinking.  After the war, we discovered the best societies to experiment with psyops on are the ones we know the best...our own.

It's also probably just a crazy coincidence that psyops teams seem to have an unhealthy fascination with religion, the occult and similar topics,.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Well, we have spent the last 100 years working on methods of propaganda and advertising (same thing).  The science is crude, deterministic and ugly, but it works.  For a given value of work, of course.

We first of all used these things for war.  The rampaging Hun and all that.  Then we used it to sell stuff.  Then the Germans decided to improve on the concept, and built the total propaganda society, "weltanschauungskrieg", world-view warfare.  We used the more neutral term of "psychological operations", but it meant the same.  Disrupt the enemy worldview, bring them around to your way of thinking.  After the war, we discovered the best societies to experiment with psyops on are the ones we know the best...our own.

It's also probably just a crazy coincidence that psyops teams seem to have an unhealthy fascination with religion, the occult and similar topics,.

Yeah, weren't the various intelligence agencies somehow tangled up in Jonestown?

Or was that just a myth?

[Cain]

Also, this is highly relevant to the whole conversation.

As is this.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Also, this is highly relevant to the whole conversation.

As is this.

3 hours plus?

I can't watch that now (at work), but I will before Monday.

[Cain]

Yeah, weren't the various intelligence agencies somehow tangled up in Jonestown?

Or was that just a myth?

It seems quite likely.

There is no definitive proof...but the chicanery around which proof might be found is highly suggestive.  That a Congressman investigating the CIA (specifically, MK-Ultra and possible links to the Symbionese Liberation Army debacle, IIRC) also happened to die during the events of Jonestown.

I know where to look to find out more.  That is, naturally, the tip of the iceberg.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Yeah, weren't the various intelligence agencies somehow tangled up in Jonestown?

Or was that just a myth?

It seems quite likely.

There is no definitive proof...but the chicanery around which proof might be found is highly suggestive.  That a Congressman investigating the CIA (specifically, MK-Ultra and possible links to the Symbionese Liberation Army debacle, IIRC) also happened to die during the events of Jonestown.

I know where to look to find out more.  That is, naturally, the tip of the iceberg.

I'd be REALLY fucking interested in this...And I DON'T know where to look.  So please do.

[Cain]

Also, this is highly relevant to the whole conversation.

As is this.

3 hours plus?

I can't watch that now (at work), but I will before Monday.

It's worth it.  Century of the Self is by the same BBC documentary maker who produced The Power of Nightmares.

[Cain]

Yeah, weren't the various intelligence agencies somehow tangled up in Jonestown?

Or was that just a myth?

It seems quite likely.

There is no definitive proof...but the chicanery around which proof might be found is highly suggestive.  That a Congressman investigating the CIA (specifically, MK-Ultra and possible links to the Symbionese Liberation Army debacle, IIRC) also happened to die during the events of Jonestown.

I know where to look to find out more.  That is, naturally, the tip of the iceberg.

I'd be REALLY fucking interested in this...And I DON'T know where to look.  So please do.

On it.

[Anna Mae Bollocks]

Would weasel words/doublespeak be a pillar, or a component of the pillars already mentioned?

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Would weasel words/doublespeak be a pillar, or a component of the pillars already mentioned?

Has to do with exhaustion AND authority figure.

[Elder Iptuous]

you believe that?  i've heard about the zuckerburg/cia link. are you referring to that?

No, I don't particularly believe that, on account of Occam's Razor and Hanlon's Razor.  I don't think the government is smart enough or agile enough to be that Goddamn creative.  Is Zuckerberg handing information over?  Most likely.  Was Facebook a CIA invention, to deliberately dumb people down?  I don't think so.  Multiple methods of social interaction have appeared on the internet, and they have been selected for, in an evolutionary sense, for the lowest common denominator.

Remember how inconvenient Usenet was?

Then there were the .coms (PD, for example).

Then chatrooms.

Then Facebook.

Then Twitter.

ok. good.
that makes much more sense.
just think how awesome it'll get when we are walking around with Google Glass strapped to our faces.  (i imagine you will swallow your head around that point. i, however, am looking forward to it.)
eventually the constant barrage of streaming thought fragments will become so severe, that we will have to drown it out with some new designer drug, which the govt. will undoubtedly crack down on as the interruption to the standard ClearMind advertising feed will have disastrous effects on the economy.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

just think how awesome it'll get when we are walking around with Google Glass strapped to our faces.  (i imagine you will swallow your head around that point. i, however, am looking forward to it.)

You're gonna read about me in the paper on twitter.

TGRR,
Has a chainsaw.  Be warned.